Well. sometime, people tend to over react, it's like those activists refusing the magic show with fish as the guy did on CNY eve claiming it's not good for fish...
If there's no risk of extinction and there is way to reproduce whales, I don't mind Japanse who like whale meat to consume it.
Why do you care if the species go extinct or not?
The first law of ecology states that Everything is connected to everything else. Simply put, this assertion implies that all living organisms in this planet are interdependent on one another. At first glance, one organism may not be directly connected to another, but when traced, there actually exists a mutually reliant relationship among all humans, plants, animals, insects and other life forms. Man can therefore never claim that he can live in isolation because he is always dependent on other organisms in one way or another. All organisms form part of a co-dependent structure called the ecosystem.
If the ecosystem can sustain it and the process doesn't cause undue pain, I don't care how charismatic critters are. If they taste good, I'll eat it without feeling guilty. You can show me the slaughterhouse videos, too. I don't care. I'm on 4chan. I fap to this.
Shark finning is pretty barbaric, though.
Desmond, that was very well articulated. But it doesn't explain why extinction would be the issue for you. If the population goes from ten thousand to five hundred, the animals might not go extinct, but it will have a significant impact on the ecosystem. In fact, the entire reason that Japan is still whaling (besides to piss off the countries that told them not to) is to test the impact that killing all the whales will have on the ecosystem.
And on the subject of the ecosystem, isn't the impact of raising billions of cattle more significant than the impact of driving several species to extinction?
Good points. I really don't see too much distinction between driving a species to extinction vs farming them for food. Look at cows these days... you won't find cows outside of the farm anymore, and within the farm they are just machines to produce milk and be harvested for meat. They've been demoted to the same level as plants. At least the whales are free before they are slaughtered.
Would love to try some whale meat or dodo bird eggs...
Domesticated animals and livestock still make contributions to ecosystems, albeit perversely. Think of all the new antibiotic-resistant microbes growing in those cows' guts.
Well talking about eco-system, like Mo Ming said, raising cattle probably contributes a lot more to the eco-system (good or bad) than wiping out all those inbred cheetahs or panda bears. I was just thinkg that if alien overlords came to earth tomorrow and enslaved us Matrix style, we'd still be a part of the so-called ecosystem but serve a completely different function. I just hope the alien overlords are hot 4 breasted women...
Good ol' PETA...
see the documentary -"the cove"
Yeah, that was a good movie. Now if only they would make one about slaughterhouses...
the awful thing is that people don't even know what they ate are dolphin meat since those meat already marked as whale or other meat in the supermarket in Japan~the government also hidding the truth to protect their benefits...those dolphin meat have very high mercury content which is highly detrimental to people's health...poor people...
Gloria, true, but dolphin meat isn't any worse than tuna meat, or other whale meat, right? They are all poisonous due to the mercury level. People know they are eating animals, does it really matter which ones?
it matters , human are also animals,can we also eat human flesh?dolphins are very general human animals,they have 3-5 years old child thinking ability ,their brain size are bigger than chimpanzees while the learning ability and intelligence are closely related to well-developed, they have abstract thinking ability that can do a lot of difficult acrobatics to amuse people, that's too cruel to kill and eat those cute animals anyway~
Gloria, I think those things are true of a very large number of animals. Certainly apes and elephants. Most animals can learn to do tricks in captivity. I wouldn't presume the ability to analyze another animals thoughts, but I don't really think it's worse to eat people than to eat dolphins.
"but I don't really think it's worse to eat people than to eat dolphins."
wow, so u think eat humans is natural ? that can't be a true human culture,Moming.
they broke the cosmic rules(rule of pure love)~
is cannibalism moral and custom of your country?
I know someone would mention friends of human" dogs" .
Then what about pigs,sheeps,chicks,cows? they can be human friends too, let alone the contribution they made to human, I also saw someone take a little piggy as his pet , to eat or not to eat?
what I want to say is that "to eat dogs is unmoral" not means that "human who eat dogs are unmoral",even if one eat dog he can be also a moral man,the one who don't eat dog can also be unmoral ,because we should measure one's morality in all aspects.
@Gloria, IMHO- Well, an animal so trusting and loyal as a dog should probaly be spared if at all possible.
Although morals should apply , what if that was all the nourishment that remained ? Would you chose to eat Spot or Cujo yet sustain ?
Although, Momings topic can be quite controversial to the woodsy type like me, I love the gift of life.There is no need to kill unnecessarily people. I hope you agree.
Virgil，since we are not living in the ancient times to kill animals for food, u think those whales and dolphins are all necessary for people to eat? apprantly,people who don't eat those meat can also lead a healthy life , I can't understand why people eat those animals that near extinct? there's no problem to eat pigs,chicks,cows even dogs since there are a great many of them~but people, how can people eat people? is it conforms to human nature? though it's exist in ancient times in cannibalic tribes but now it is already civilized era~
"There is no need to kill unnecessarily people" who is the necessary people deserve to die?
@ Gloria, look at it this way "There is no need to kill unnecessarily, people". I was saying that there is no need to kill unnecessarily for food, especially when there is chicken, beef, pork, fish/seafood and tofu right in front of us.
All of the existing ethics are conventionalized by predecessors and most of people imposed on those few groups,suppose this planet ,the earth we live on,had no food, only by eating disadvantaged people to flourish in their own race and extend his own life that the law of jungle namely "morality", no one would think it is unethnical thing at that time~
so it is,people kill those animals because there has its market, if no one would eat those meat, who would kill them unnecessarily？still,the problem is that people eat those meat...
Gloria, in my countries cannibalism is not the norm, but there are places where it is still normal, and I wouldn't pass judgement on them.
Raising cows for slaughter arguably does more damage to the environment than would the genocide of many whale species. Maybe whales are more intelligent than cows, but does intelligence give soemthing a right to life? Certainly, a chimpanzee may be more intelligent than a retarded human, but it's still generally considered acceptable to kill chimpanzees.
Moming, u r really good at chicanery,huh~ I didn't say intelligence give something a right to life~actually am more lean on the categoricall morality,everyone has his birthright which can not be deprived~so u think it is comprehensible to be cruel to kill those cute living creatures only for money and satisfy human's curiosity at food taste? It thoroughly exposed human's covetousness and selfishness~where is the end at last?
hehe, since this world is fucking crazy, things between "normal" and "abnormal" has already became ambiguous and contentious .now people are still governed by those people who owns power...still living by the law of jungle,people's values and philosophy has already imposed by ones who owns the power and wealth... even those powerful people do some extremely cruel things to others they may still think that is understandable...but those who said they are not restrict by those powerful people and has his own priciple and moral reason and still think killing whales and dolphins and anyother creature is comprehensible, I should say they are amoral and cruel ones...
PETA is out of control!
As long as sustainable methods are in place and no animals are driven into extinction then people should be able to eat whichever animals they want.
Whale meat is pretty good. I have had grey whale, humpback whale, baluga whale, fur seal, walrus, etc.... (I lived in an Alaskan native village)
There are quotas to follow for the harvesting of these mammals which should be honored. Due to the traveling nature of the animals sometimes international guidelines should be established in order to promote the sustainability of the animal population. If Japan does not follow international laws and gets more whale meat than their fair share then that is not cool. However, since not many other people want to eat whales then Japans whaling probably wont cause extinction. Those PETA tree huggers need to stop with their whiney business of trying to give personality a human aspects to sea mammals. They are animals. We can eat them and they can eat us. We should probably figure out ways to sustain populations, but definitely not ban all eating of animals.
Its so funny how on "Shepards of the Sea" these people are battling the Japanese whaling vessels and the whalers are demonized on the show. However, those fucking hippies are interfereing with international business and market activity. When the sea shepard boat got damaged they were all blaming the Japanese captain for trying to hurt them, however thats what happens when you get in the way of a ship with a smaller boat. I was laughing my ass off when that happened! The hippies looked so surprised! Like, "OMG we can really get hurt fucking with these people's business." What a bunch of idiots.......
yea please elighten us .
How many damn whales could we possibly eat? As long as there are quotas and people follow them it should be fine. Enough whales to balance the eco system.....
Sometimes poeple forget that we are part of the eco system too. We are not seperated by some devine right. We should not kill off species to the brink of extinction, but then again we should also not be barred from utilizing what we need from nature.
I lived in an Alaskan Native village and whales as well as many other sea and wild land mammals are staple foods for them. They have been eating these things since the beginning of their arctic culture. Furthermore, the Japanese have also been whaling since they cinstructed the first Japanese boats.
Westerners are the poeple who forced these mamals to the brink of extinction because we had to kill as many as possible as qucikly as possible for profit on the oil market and we did not even eat the damn whales. It was purely a business back then for western countries while civilizations that actually relied on the whales for nourishment still took their small protion of the whale population without making too big of an impact. Now that these western whalers grandsons and granddaughters have turned into whale defenders everyone should just stop eating whales simply because someone likes them and they are gentle giants that breath air like humans?
I do agree that Japanese whalers do take more than their fair share of whales, but i do not think their activities will drive them to exctinction. We do the counts here in Hawaii every year and I actively participate in this activity. Our numbers are still very strong and all the pacific whales pass through the islands. The populations are sustainable up to this point because of the international moratorium on whaling that is largley followed with the acception of some native groups and the Japanese whaling vessels. You also do not want too many whales in the oceans either becuase that could also be bad.
Be wary of whos info your looking at. Many of the organizations who are putting out whale numbers and information are bias. Most people just go along with them because it seems like the right thing to do. I like whales. They are beautiful and amazing creatures, but they are not more special than any other creature who desrves a sutainable population on Earth.
Andy, sorry for the delayed response, I just saw your request. I thought this was common knowledge or I would have provided information earlier.
"Cattle-rearing generates more global warming greenhouse gases, as measured in CO2 equivalent, than transportation...
...Livestock are one of the most significant contributors to today’s most serious environmental problems...
...Cattle-rearing is also a major source of land and water degradation...
...The livestock business is among the most damaging sectors to the earth’s increasingly scarce water resources, contributing among other things to water pollution from animal wastes, antibiotics and hormones, chemicals from tanneries,
fertilizers and the pesticides used to spray feed crops. ..."
Or you might just read the wikipedia article on the environmental impacts of meat production
Kodi, how've you been? Back in Beijing?
The specified purpose of the Japanese whaling fleet is to kill enough whales to have an environmental impact. This is all in the name of science, of course.
I don't have a big problem with someone taking a boat out on the ocean and killing a whale for the next five years' dinner. I think that taking a fleet out to ambush migrating populations is disgustingly genocidal though. However, I don't know that I have a much higher opinion of raising livestock for slaughter.
Oops, I have to note that the comparrison to transportation aspect of the 2006 study has been debunked. There is nothing incorrect about the damages done by raising animals for slaughter, but the lifecycle damages were compared only to the emissions from transportation, rather than the emissions from the transportation lifecycle.
“潜在的危害” 是指，在评价危害的时候，要尽可能谨慎，毕竟“生态平衡” 这个词儿太复杂，很多关系并不是那么直接和已知的。
I prefer to think that there is no right or wrong on this matter. Whaling or no whaling is about human interest, and supporting whaling or preventing whale is also about human interest. Superficially speaking, it's just difference of opinions, and "filithily speaking" (to those 'innocent', pretend-to-be-pure princes and princesses), it's all politics. Evinronmental protection...to a large extent, is a term which one interest group uses against another interest group...Yes, we need to protect the environment that we live in, but how? Is the prevalent opinion stating the truth? What is the ultimate truth?...Can Science really sustain the great task of preserving human civilization or just lead to ultimate destruction because of the underlying ideology it promotes? Sometimes, we are just a bunch of animals who have yet been able to see the whole picture of our world...In fact, just doing a little pondering over human history, we will find that lots of "advanced" scientific concepts in certain time periods have been proved wrong later...So, please do not hold on to extremeties...there are always alternate possibilities...
有一些典型的反对理由，是我所反感的：1）猫狗可爱：这是无所谓是非的纯个人喜好，且这个理由其实很残忍，对于“不可爱”的动物来说； 2）XXX动物是人类的朋友：这个也是无所谓是非的纯个人喜好，而且这个理由也很残忍，对于天性和人类相抵触的动物来说； 3）现有的屠宰方式不人道：这个其实是事实，而且我也反对，但我不会只是拿“杀猫的方式不人道”，“杀狗的方式不人道”来说事儿。据我对当今屠宰行业的了解，不仅在中国，而且在很多西方国家，对于牲畜的屠宰方式的残忍程度，只会比大家所见的杀猫杀狗的方式更甚。我反对一切不人道的屠宰方式，但不会只盯着个别动物说事儿；4）XXX动物很聪明：这是一个没有逻辑的判断，起码没有人曾经说明，一个动物的中枢神经发达程度和它是否能成为人类的食物之间有什么明显的关系，以及你所认为的threshold上下的动物，他们的中枢神经发达程度到底有什么本质区别。另外，猪其实非常聪明~
所以，基本上我很不喜欢去从太高的道德角度去谴责他人的做法不好，大多时候只是指出他人的行为不对这一性质上的判断就好了，而绝不想摆出一幅站在道德制高点上的样子。因为如果这样，我觉得我问心有愧，好比说，凭什么我没事儿干的时候就愿意想当然地把大排量车的油门踩到底，去山里兜风，却还要去从道德上指责他人捕杀海豚或鲸鱼的问题 -- 他们这样做是错了，指出这种错误是每个人都有的权利，只是，人性如此，你如此，我也如此，我们都本性热衷于指出他人的错误，却很少能看到自己的问题。