Discussion » Nonsense » Stereotypes

  • Jon Gu - 顾晓帆
    Jon Gu - 顾晓帆 wrote:
    I kind of enjoyed the direction that the “Black guys are the best in Sex” thread went and would like to see more discussion on this topic. Hopefully we can have a more reasonable discussion here without all the garbage and dumbfuckery that went on in that thread.

    So we left off talking about how positive stereotypes still subtly serve to denigrate people based on their race. A lot of good points were brought up:

    A key point brought up by Kodi, Dando, Thorstan, and co. is that racial stereotyping is harmful, regardless of any good intentions. No matter how much of a compliment it may sound like, typecasting people based on their appearance propagates racist thoughts. In particular, I think Dando mentioned that you cannot just cherry pick the good stereotypes and get upset when people use negative stereotypes against you.

    Kodi mentioned that by saying that one race is superior at something, we are implying that other races must be inferior. It is logical for example to say that you cannot believe that black people have the biggest dicks without also believing that everyone else must have small penises.

    Alright, so back to the topic of stereotypes. I’ve always believed that stereotypes serve a useful purpose and more often than not, they tend to be accurate. You guys already know by now that I’m long winded and love using examples, so here are a few below. Sorry, these are strongly rooted in American culture so maybe less applicable/understandable for you European and Chinese guys.

    1) If I find myself in a black part of town, I need to be careful.
    2) White teenagers in trench coats, old guys riding Harleys and sporting big beards and black leather, and skinheads are also not safe to be around.
    3) Asian kids are good at math and usually grow up to be doctors/engineers/accountants… they are the “model minorities.”

    I would argue for the most part that these are generally true statements.

    For example #1, I’ve had my car’s stereo equipment jacked several times, apartment was broken into, and a shop I worked in actually saw a few guys break through the fucking brick walls outside to steal the inventory inside. Every police report showed that witnesses reported a “young black man/men” commit these crimes.

    Example #2 is pretty self explanatory. Actually I have several friends who are old Harley riders, but in general, a 20 yr old skinhead is more likely to be an Aryan than fashionably bald or a cancer patient.

    As for Example #3, I also find this to be generally true. A much higher percentage of my Asian-American friends are in white collar professions than my white and black friends.
  • Joakim Berg Solum
    I personally believe that many of these types of stereotypes can be useful. It allows us to make somewhat rational choices when we don’t have time to dig deeper and find out the truth behind every situation. Driving through the poor parts of downtown St. Louis, I know that I need to put my windows up and lock the doors. Walking alone at night in Beijing, I am a lot more guarded when I see a bunch of young guys talking really loud and cursing than when I pass by a couple or an elderly man.

    So my question is this: at what point does this stereotyping turn into racist thought? Again going to my example of violence in black communities, I think it’s pretty legitimate to assume that you need to be more careful driving through the ‘hood, but when does that line of thinking turn into something more overtly racist like “black people are all violent criminals?” Is all of this stereotypical profiling harmful, even when the conclusions are sometimes true?
  • Kamilla Bjørnøy
    u r too serious man....
  • Kamilla Bjørnøy
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    There are (or were) anti-racist skinheads, too. Part of that subculture arises from punk. There used to be a "braces and laces" taxonomy of skinhead groups. Southern Poverty Law Center says the SHARPs are basically defunct in the US, though. I don't know about Europe.

    But yeah. Most of the time, they're goddamned Nazis.
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    This is why we can't have nice things.
  • Minger
    Minger wrote:
    26 yr old skinhead: fuk you man, you're just mad cause you have a small penis!

    Although in many cases I am able to convince people that I am fashionably bald rather than just simply bald. They tell me to grow my hair out.

    Stereotypes exist because they're a pretty accurate foundation for how we look at people that we don't know a lot about. I think they're fine as long as we don't act negatively to people based on them.

    i.e, you may be careful around me if my shiny bald head and glowing eye sockets remind you of someone who told you to go home to a country you'd never been to, but don't be mean to me and you'll realize that I'm a friendly fellow with cursed genes.
  • Jon Magnus Ro
    Jon Magnus Ro wrote:
    i think that the stereotypes become racism when you automatically think that about one given individual. yes, many stereotypes are true, and simply come into being because they are based on truths. i think the line is drawn when you take one of those stereotypes and automatically stick it to one person. which i have seen done many times to some of my black friends here in beijing.
    the stereotype of black guys being drug dealers or bad news is generally carried by most chinese. so the racist part of it is when my friends are refused service, or when they are forced to pay more to enter a club, because these chinese folks automatically assume that this one individual (due to his color) must fit into the stereotype generally believed.
  • xxxxxxxx
    xxxxxxxx wrote:
    Stereotyping suggest that there no individuals; everyone of this color (Black, White...) acts like this, thinks like this, talks like this, is suppose to be like this etc. Its harm is that its totally a false premise to begin with

    Well, having said that, i think that all "Stereotypes" negatives or positive are harmful, in the sense that they create an untrue assumption about a group of people, "Black people have bigger genitals" or "All Asians are good at Math" or again "Asians can't drive". Negatives stereotypes are obviously harmful, Positive stereotypes limit and categorize people, then if one cannot live up to the stereotype, then they are criticized for not reflecting their own race.

    Example; Asians are supposed to be smarter than the rest of us (its a positive stereotype), but what about poor Asians, or those who didn't go to school, or those who aren't smart, they are going to have to deal with a lot of false expectations and assumptions about their work ethic, same thing for Black people. I have been asked more than once (here in China) whether or not i could Rap, jump higher, run faster..., and sometimes whether or not i have a big Penis, to the observer or the asker, these stereotypes might seem to be positive, but they can be misleading, and create false assumption, since i can't rap, nor can jump higher than 2 inches..lol

    No one likes to be categorized, stereotyped positively and certainly not negatively regardless of what race they belong to, I like to be judged on my own merits not by what group I belong to.
  • A豆腐
    A豆腐 wrote:
    [...]So my question is this: at what point does this stereotyping turn into racist thought?[...]

    maybe when these stereotypes begin to reclaim a political space, a legislation founded in them.

    You said ¨I personally believe that many of these types of stereotypes can be useful¨, I think the same, most of them are founded in stadistics, in association of facts. The problem begins when some person begins to consider one probability like one kind of science law. And the most important, when this person ignores the real causes (social, economic) of these association.
    for be clear in an example : the association of color skin and prisoners in the jails of USA. Is random? no, what causes? very similar to the reasons that all the socialist denounced about the situation of proletarians, worker class, in the S.XIX.
    Condition of the Working Class in England, by Engels

    For the same association (poor worker+alcoholism), two explanations in the S.XIX.

    Because this worker drinks too much, for this reason he is poor, his attitude is not good for the life.
    Because this worker is a slave without posibility of escape of his terrible situation, converted in machine, for this reason he drinks too much.
  • A豆腐
    A豆腐 wrote:
    since my point of view, if you only stay in the surface of the sterotypes, and you ignored the real causes of the associations of facts, and you use the stereotypes like science laws, then you are fucked.
  • №❶ Passioη
    I think your expressed confusion is simple... There is a certain truth that has been ignored here: the colour and physical appearance of a man may not affect his thinking and actions - only his background and personality may do. Therefore even though the physical appearance (for example: Chinese people have black hair, black people have big dicks, etc) may be truly generalised, how each man uses the dick may not be generalised. Just like you may not say "black horses run faster"... but you may say: "this black horse runs faster because it's legs are longer"... sounds more reasonable right?... now, back to your issue: "at what point does this stereotyping turn into racist thought?"

    1. When you find a "black man" who has NEVER lived in a "hood" but you still have silly prejudices against him, that is racism (because like you just said, the ones in the hood may be violent)... so what about the ones outside with decent jobs and lifestyles like me ;) ?

    2. When you turn general racial prejudice to your own advantage. For example "Asians are good in math"... it's not Asians but Indians you dumb ass. Yes, the same indians you may have something against... but when they achieve something good like in Math, Pharmacy and IT, you want to say "Asians" so that their glory can reach you. That's greed Jon Gu.

    3. When you ignore facts like: "violent blacks in the hood attack their own people more than any other race". But you rather make it appear like the problem is Black Vs. You, sounds like social black violence is targeted at other races - so untrue. Now, imagine if black people were to assume that all asians were violent just because once upon a time, some japanese troops came to china, heartlessly beheaded women and children after rapping them thoroughly, etc (a level of violence that is far beyond what blacks can even imagine)... what if we were to associate that level of violence to all asian people and say: "After all they all have yellow skins so there's no difference" ... just like you said: "Asians"

    4. Personal qualities and principles cannot be recognized if you continue to view a person as a people. You American of all people should know that, except you want to give up your seemingly sweet ABC status and be called Chinese :D , you already sound like you deserve that hehe... Think Jon, dont disappoint me ;)

    5. Because if you are representing a majority of the American way of thinking, Obama would never make it to be president. You asian minded racist would uphold your "useful stereotype" and ignore the "useless personal qualities" of a leader, then we would not have the "change" that the world deserves.

    6. When you choose to ignore the good things achieved by a certain race and rather uphold the little bad things you heard about them, it creates you a negative and monomaniac way of seeing things. For example, Africa is the continent carrying the largest population of black people. It is also the continent where china strongly relies on for raw materials for the manufacturing sector (the most significant sector of the Chinese economy), and lately China's only option as the emerging largest market for Chinese products after the US embargo... Africa also has such a stable land that they never have earthquakes (which kills thousands of people in one go), etc... Africa doesn't have half a year of a cold season that gets people sick and dressed up like astronauts just to get out the house. Oh yes, Africans should have something to laugh about when people dress like balloons in their country :D yet all you choose to know about that continent is that there is war, hunger, disease, etc... stuff that are true only about some countries...
  • №❶ Passioη
    ...You should realise there are 2 sides to everything. Even you American Chinese who claim to be so good have some criminals who associate with the hood, there are also top criminal Chinese gangs in the USA. Read more

    Finally I would say: it doesn't matter if you dont like black people or any other race, there is absolutely no problem in that (not yet)... the only problem is when this kind of stereotype motivates you to act unfairly towards them (and believe me it always does)... you discriminate them intensively in the following ways -

    1. You refuse them a job offer even though this guy is qualified but since the mere sight of him irritates you, you just don't want to have him around your company (That's Racism).

    2. You refuse to give him a visa to your country even though his intentions are genuine but you just don't like the way he talks, the way he walks, or you read something bad about someone else who you assume shares the same brain with him / her or whatever. (That's racism)

    3. You are a police man looking for someone to harass, you choose nothing else from the crown but a dark person, you search him up just because you suspect him - often you still find nothing wrong with this guy but another day you do the same. (That's Racism)

    And let me remind you, there are different kinds of black people just like there are different kinds of any other race. The ones you find here are from entirely different backgrounds, they come here to study, work, etc... and a few come here to "hussle" whatever that means... yes, some of those are already enough embarrassment to the genuine ones and there is a huge gap between the 2 that can never be fairly bridged. Not even in your own racist mind.

    So if you continue to disrespect the innocent ones, cancel their visas and send them back home for no reasons, they will not fight you, they will not behave like what you described as from the hood. they will simply find a way to avoid the trouble and go back home... but the truth they say is bitter, you Chinese people are short-sighted and do not realise AFRICA IS YOUR FUTURE... The same people you treat so badly today will be in a position to make decisions that affect china tomorrow. Mark these words... if not in your generation then next (Your children of which you may teach to avoid blacks) will....

    BTW, not all black people have huge penises :D .. and not all Chinese have small penises ;)
  • Joakim Berg Solum
    Good shit people. №❶ Passioη, this is one of your few posts where except for your skillful and deliberate misinterpretation of my words, you don't sound like you are completely trolling, hahaha

    To your points:

    1) If you dress like a gangsta from the 'hood, I’m going to assume you are one until you open your mouth. If you wear a business suit, I'm going to assume you're some sort of professional, until you open your mouth. I won't deny that I make assumptions about people, but I'm willing to learn more to prove those assumptions false.

    2) If you want to twist this to make it seem like I’m trying to make Chinese people sound good, it’s your right. But the fact is, in America, Asians are linked to strong math skills. Indians are linked more to medicine and IT, like you said. And the whole “model minority” stereotype actually serves to harm both Asian and Indian people. Lots of Americans hate us… “they took our jobs!”

    3) My next post sort of addresses the whole black-on-black violence. In general, I think that Americans caused this problem going all the way back to slavery and it’s a hard cycle to break. But in general, I think we can all agree that violence is universal. Japanese trying to eradicate Chinese, Germans trying to eradicate Jews, Romans vs Christians, different African tribes wiping each other out.

    4) In agreement here. Not sure where your little personal attack fits in though.

    5) I wouldn’t have voted for Obama. I don’t give a damn that he is black. I used a different stereotype for that. He’s a Democrat, and I prefer the Republican party line.

    6) Also in agreement. Africa has been exploited for far too long. It’s not enough to enslave their people, but allowing the genocide to go on there while exploiting all their resources just shows that people still have no respect for Africa.

    I actually had a part 2 of this thread that I refrained from posting because I want to see other people’s opinions first. I guess I'll post that up right now.
  • Joakim Berg Solum
    I've got to admit that I probably have some strange views about this topic. I don't consider myself to be a blatant racist, but I'm certainly not without prejudice. I've spent a majority of my life growing up in or working in a mostly black neighborhood (not the 'hood with the violence and crime, just close enough that the population is more black than anyone else). I stereotype people based on the way they look and dress and what area I meet them at, and that stereotype only goes away when they open their mouth. It's hard to have a completely neutral opinion about people... there's just too much news and media that influences our opinions.

    I worked in a computer shop that had 90% black customers, and I definitely stereotyped them the minute they walked in the door. A guy wearing busted up jeans, a lot of gold and a do-rag I figured is probably rapper/musician/video producer. And most of the time, yep, those people were looking for CD and DVD Duplication equipment. The guy dressed business casual was usually an office worker for either a telecom company or one of those tax/loan places. The ones dressed in suits are usually trying to sell you something, usually in some sort of pyramid or MLM scheme. And for all the bad rap stereotyping gets, these initial opinions were right a lot more often than they were wrong. I don’t consider it racist when I guess that a black guy in my area wearing a bunch of bling-bling is probably a rapper.

    I believe that stereotyping becomes harmful and potentially racist when we blindly apply them without thinking about why the stereotype exists. First off, let me say that I’m going to make a lot of kind of general statements here without much research so don’t crucify me too hard if I get some facts wrong. First, let’s talk about the “violent black man” stereotype.

    Why do many people worry that a black man is going to be violent? A lot of it comes from violence in the ‘hood. The gang wars in the US got a lot of publicity back in the 80’s. You go to a poor black neighborhood and there’s generally a lot of drug dealing and carjacking going on, if not straight up violence. But what information does this tell us? It doesn’t mean that black people are inherently violent and take pleasure in breaking the law. It’s more of a reflection of America’s history regarding slavery and prejudice.

    You take a bunch of people away from their land, enslave them and force them to do manual labor only, prohibit them from getting any meaningful education, and then one day you let them go free, but with many discriminatory laws to keep them separated from the whites. They have no education and are still stuck as farm hands and manual laborers. In the meanwhile, they are kept segregated and black ghettos start to pop up. They receive less support and have much lower access to decent jobs, so they stay poor and stay black because no white person wants to live there either. Violence is the result of this, and it is likely to happen whenever you put people in ghettos and segregate, no matter if they are black, Jewish, Japanese, or whatever. There is a lot of pent up anger and poverty and having nowhere else to unleash it, they will fight amongst themselves. The violence gets directed towards white people trying to come into the ‘hood to bring reform too, so the cycle keeps perpetuating.
  • Joakim Berg Solum

    The violence comes from their individual behavior and personalities which were strongly shaped by their social condition, not by their race or skin color. It just happens that the social condition occurred as a result of their skin color, but it is a huge difference. The stereotype of violent inner city black man is generally true but to infer that it’s true because his race is naturally more prone to violence is racist.

    The Asian-Math stereotype is interesting as well. I believe this refers mostly to Asian immigrants. The US has some pretty tight controls on who gets in and who doesn’t. Many people who immigrated here from Asia generally did so on high academic merit. Their school environment is tough and they are tough on their children as well. Once you get into 3rd and 4th generation Asian kids though, you find they are just as diverse as the rest of the population as far as academic achievement. And if you look around, you will find plenty of Asian people working dead end jobs in retail shops or restaurants. Just because Chinese people used to be really good with the abacus doesn’t mean we’re all good at math. (I’m good at math though, and I have a large penis……)
  • Joakim Berg Solum
    Jesus Christ, that was some wall of text...
  • №❶ Passioη
    yes it was.. and I only had one thing in mind while reading... I wonder what black people would be wanting from you, and why it matters what you think about them...

    I am a software project manager Jon Gu and I sometimes wear jeans on weekend and I'm thinking wearing the baggy type is not a bad idea though... so when you see me in baggie jeans, please run away :D it gives me more space to do what I want :D

    About your subtle sarcasm on Africa - time will prove this one to you, believe me I've known 10s of people like you... they never win.. you've contradicted yourself in several ways but in a nut shell you've already admitted being racist but simply trying to discuss with others what's wrong with it...

    it's ok, people are homosexuals, etc.. it doesn't matter what you are, what matters is how what you are affects the next man, I hope you get it ;)
  • Joakim Berg Solum
    Not sure where you read sarcasm. Like I said, I agree with you on that. Africa is rich in resources and all people want to do right now is to exploit that to keep their own material costs down. Similar to how America exploits China for its cheap labor, but China seems to want actually want this, hence artificially keeping Chinese currency undervalued.

    But just because what you said is true doesn't mean the war, hunger, disease doesn't exist. And like I mentioned, people are exploiting this for the cheap resources because keeping Africa down is politically and economically beneficial to everyone else.

    Honestly, I'm not really trying to specifically target racism against black people. It's just that that's the most prevalent kind of racism that I've been exposed to. And it is brought up a lot on these forums (like your post about Chinese people talking about you on the subway). It makes for some interesting discussions.

    Personally, I have nothing to gain or lose either way. I'm not trying to save anyone from racism, not trying to promote it either, but still think there is value in discussing these topics. It's a lot more interesting than "how many dates before you can touch a boobie." Talking accomplishes at least a little bit more than shutting up and saying nothing. Plus I do like putting up walls of text, and don't hide behind a nickname.

    And greetings anyways, from one IT guy to another. I'm a computer science guy myself and worked for a couple of years as a software dev, although I did branch out and try to do the whole small business thing for a while. Now I'm back to grad school for more CS. I applaud your professional accomplishments though and wish I were that far along in my career... Although how your software PM position allows you to grant people VISA's is strange to me.
  • Joakim Berg Solum
    @Jack and Adolfo... good points. Same thing I was trying to say, but I think you guys stated it a lot more clearly. I don't know why I'm being so obtuse and wordy lately...
  • №❶ Passioη
    @ Jon Gu

    Good observation, If you must know - After completing my PM contract in March, the immigration department hired me to develop a new custom software to make it easier for them to manage suspected and blacklisted visa applicants so I had to go back to being a developer, delivered them the new system just last week... but they still need me around as their new Chief Information Systems Manager...

    Although the position they offered is quite different from my core profession, not challenging and not competitive, but It pays the bills much better than the previous job... so I'll stick around as a way to fill the blank space till I get a more career-focused offer from a multinat or shares in a new Software Outsourcing Company... But this does not mean I cannot continue to call myself a PM :D

    Nice to know you're a developer... I would rather envy you because honestly I didn't come to PM from 10 years of developer experience but simply from good connections :D A good network of people is important for whatever we want in life... so maybe we should look at ourselves more as falling under the same career umbrella / industry than under different races :P

    Nice to meet you
  • Minger
    Minger wrote:
    haha, 小莫, did you watch that episode yet? I believe it's 8x15... maybe 8x13.
  • Åse Marie Strand
  • Maggie Hu
    Maggie Hu wrote:
    OMG, u guys are sth!
  • Joakim Berg Solum
    haha... Hey, what's up Maggie. How's life?
  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)


    I had read this from today's China Daily (20 May 2010), but I am not sure whether to dumb this into the other thread called "You Chinese Cowards" or not ... so I did both:

    Invisible people, unknown countries

    By S. Idowu Ola (China Daily)
    Updated: 2010-05-20 10:34


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