Discussion » Nonsense » Stop defending your 'country', moron!

  • Pavoir Sponse
    Pavoir Sponse wrote:
    Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel, according to that great man of English letters, Samuel Johnson.

    I am inclined to agree with him. Intense patriotism all too often leads to a complete decline in rationale. Debates on politics, morality, law (often on this very website) etc are no longer logically and sensibly dealt with, but subsumed into a mindless defence of one’s country. Government’s then use this weakness to perpetuate various deeds of questionable morality and to ensure their citizens resemble herds of vacuous sheep.

    It’s fine to love one’s country. My sense of Britishness, for example, can border on the absurd. I love the fact we like to talk about the weather, play odd sports like cricket, engage in bizarre hobbies such as bird watching, not to mention our ironic, caustic, antic sense of humour, which I feel is rarely bettered.

    However where England has flaws, and it has many, I look to address them on them on their own merits. The relationship between citizen and a government is healthy when it comes to mirror that of a dog and a lamppost. Accordingly, where necessary I will attack the government strongly and encourage others to do so. This is not attack on England but the government, so why conflate the two?

    So please, next time you jump to defend your country like a Huxleian automaton, take a deep breath and use your brain instead.

    After all, the country of your birth was just an accident, it’s not like you planned it that way.
  • Joakim Berg Solum
    Well said. Goofy ass Brits... now if only you guys could learn to speak English like proper Americans... hahaha

    Hard to go against something that's been drilled into your brain since childhood though. For example, no one will ever convince me that a person shouldn't have the right to own guns and other firearms in their own home, and I firmly believe in freedom of speech, press and religion. But if I were born somewhere else, I may not believe those things.

    To say to use your brain because your individuality shouldn't be defined by your birthplace is a bit of a misnomer... your brain has already been shaped by your country of birth if you've lived there for any appreciable amount of time.

    Go easy on everyone here, maybe someday they'll come around. Technology and cities develop faster than people after all.
  • Pavoir Sponse
    Pavoir Sponse wrote:
    Fair point to say that people are socialized by their surroundings, appreciate that it is difficult to get beyond stuff that is so ingrained. Appreciate your country of origin will affect your thinking, but it's lazy to use that as an excuse not to indulge your brain.

    Similarly, if you think people should be allowed to keep firearms in the house you ought to attempt to justify it a bit beyond the fact that you were brought up on the idea. Incidentally, it sounds like a fucking insane idea to me... but maybe that's because I am a Brit.
  • A豆腐
    A豆腐 wrote:
    I believe that the problem is when a person from other country is very critic with your culture or your goverment. In this case is when you have the perception of -attack-, is for this reason that you defend your country (you use -defend- in the title of your post).
    In Spain we are very happy having argument all day... Catalanes, Vascos, Franquistas, Nacionalistas, Republicanos, Monarquicos, but we can not bear when others (foreigners) criticize us.
    And I think that this thing happen more stronger when your country was a piece of cake during the age of colonialism, and now the old ¨invaders¨ are trying to say how govern your own country or changing your culture.
    I believe that
    In your country you can be rude and direct with the critize of your own goverment.
    In other countries you must to be soft, polite.

  • Da Fan
    Da Fan wrote:
    Good point, Carlos, I am inclined to agree with u~
  • Pavoir Sponse
    Pavoir Sponse wrote:
    I see what you are saying Adolfo, of course it is important to be polite and I endeavour to do this at home and abroad.

    I am not sure that because I am from one country it should not stop be from being critical of anthying outside my country, particularly in, I'm told, an ever globalized society.

    If I may cite another of my English heroes, George Orwell, was he wrong to go to Spain to fight facisim because he was English? Of course not.

    If I told you I deplored Franco, that is not saying I hate Spain, a country I think is wonderful in so many ways (just look at my name, ha).

    People should use their intelligence when responding to criticism, if people have a 'perception of attack' they should ask themselves, is this perception real and, if so, what is being attacked?

    For example, I would equate someone attacking British Colonialism as an an attack on me personally or my country as a whole as I feel to to do so would be moronic.
  • TonyDice
    TonyDice wrote:
    wouldn't it be funny if another guy, also called Tony, a Spaniard, say, starts knocking the UK...
  • Pavoir Sponse
    Pavoir Sponse wrote:

    I would NOT equate someone attacking British Colonialism as an an attack on me personally or my country as a whole.
  • A豆腐
    A豆腐 wrote:
    In this case....my family belongs to the defeated, so for me is not problem, for me is you think that Franco was shit dwarf ugly outside and inside, for me is perfect, for me you are a nice person XD and also good, great!!!, for all volunteers that tried to save the spanish republic (Also I admired G. Orwell). But remember that, sitll today, many people in my country say and think that Franco was a good goverment, so... becareful, these persons grew up hating many things, including the people from France (masones) and Uk (the perfidious Albion jaja you can see this in the old books of school). I want to say that your comment for spanish ears have around 50% possibilities to create angry.

    I´m not defending a point of view relativism, but in something clear like the stupid and false ideas of any fascism, somepeople can not bear the critize and see the true, in other case more complex, then....

    Ortega y Gasset, the spanish philosopher, said: We have ideas, but not beliefs, our beliefs have us. We can learn ideas, but not beliefs, you born with beliefs ( I think that this is the idea of Jon Gun) .You have distance with the ideas, you can think about them, but you live in the beliefs, we feel the beliefs.

  • Pavoir Sponse
    Pavoir Sponse wrote:
    Thanks Adolfo.

    I may get 50% of people angry for not liking Franco but that should not stop me saying it... obviously one has to be careful how one speaks though!

    Also thank you for bringing me to the attention of Gasset, interesting stuff... and I concur with a lot of his stuff. I rather like the maxim... Yo soy yo y mi circunstancia" ("I am myself and my circumstance").

    Though I do think maybe you misrepresent what he is saying about being born with beliefs, in some ways at least

    I am not sure his comments are fair to to use against my initial comments about mindless patriotism... but interesting all the same.
  • Candy Q
    Candy Q wrote:
    Good point. Very common problem in China. A lot of Chinese people are so into the Patriotism idea blindly that they would defend our country in any case. I found it hard for them to change though.
    Hope more people can read this and think about it...
  • Aurélien
    Aurélien wrote:
    I think I'm pretty open-minded with foreigners. Criticizing my country is okay, but at least if they know something about it. Too many people will use old cliches to criticize or don't even know what they're talking about.
  • A豆腐
    A豆腐 wrote:
    @Carlos. Is not against yours comments, sounds like a fight, is only trying to distill something, unravel the ideas, because I think that theme is comple, like a skein of thread.

    ¨I am myself and my circumstance¨, yes, but this ¨myself¨ is not like a kind of -Adán-, when I´m face to face with the world, with my circumstances, in the first moment and in many cases later, I don´t create new ways of life, new concepts and new values, I have them before my reason, I´m not a blank slate, in fact this can not be, the reason has an age for appear, in the most of cases the dialectic thought is near 8 years (Piaget). But before what? before you are like a wet clay mold, your parents, your teachers in the school, the cartoons.... many people write in you, before the reason is formed. All these things (values, concepts...) are your first point of view, and maybe this is expresion is wrong, because the words -point of view- implie distance, reflection, and in the first moment you don´t have this, so, if better say that they are your eyes, not your point of view. With these borrowed eyes you see the world in the first moment (i think that is not like a glasses, easy to take off)
    In relation with the patriotism... I believe that this kind of things are inoculated-inculcated in the school, this is the time for give a format to the mind of a human, like the animals exists a time for tame. They are feeling like affects, like nature, and the reason... what can the reason do against the affects? they are not in the same plane, when the Reason and the Affects go to the ring, the Reason always go out saying the Affects don´t follow the rules, don´t use arguments.
    So, How is possible the dialogue about this? the critic? How you can fight against the patriotism when you recieved this in the school or in your family? attack these, is feel for the other person like an attack against -self-. Maybe the solution is the solution of Spinoza, the reason must change in affect for move.

    sorry, I not a good archer, and I need many arrows for have a hit in the target.
  • №❶ Passioη
    As usual, you are all NUTS...

    @Carlos, is it that hard to type "an" just once? or that structure connotes something I'm yet to decode? pardon my blur mood

    @Gu , who told you people are affected by the "country where they are born and raised"? Did you think about the fact that a country could have different cultural segments, etc... and if you think this does NOT oppose your opinion, Did you know some people are born to dislike their own country and copy styles from other parts of the world which eventually make up a better part of their personalities?

    Since you don't care to absorb cultures from other parts of the world, it doesn't mean that others dont. All you NUTS uphold this kind of thinking which drives you to judge people by their nationalities. And that goes for you Brits and over-patriotic Chinese NUTS. Oops, I rather wanted to say...

    Don't underestimate a Chinese person's English language proficiency. No matter what level it is at, He/She can ask the first question in a 'jieshao session": "WHATS YOUR NATIONALITY (minzu)" - A question I've heard over 700 times within my 9 months in China. "Nationality" My Ass.. You think everyone is like you: Know 1 = Know All.

    As a Chinese (which I was suppose to be - just to help lessen some crap), I just wanna say, I love you.. but don't get me wrong, I'll spank you where you're wrong :P You all should be happy God manufactured me with distinctive components not enough to drop it hot on this topic... Hmm...

    Ride on Ride on Without me ;)
  • Joakim Berg Solum
    @Passion, the fallacy of your comment astounds me really. Learning to hate your own country is quite frankly still due to being raised and born in that country. Some foreigners come to China and really love the culture, while I'm sure some poor misguided Chinese boy is dressing himself up in bling-bling, indigo pants and a backwards cap as we speak. Both of these people would clearly have different perspective if they were born somewhere else. You simply can't change that.

    Even in America, let's talk about people from different cultural backgrounds. This is not a racial comment at all, but just for example... a black kid raised on welfare in some New York Bronx project is going naturally have a different personality than if he were adopted and raised by an upper class white family in the Chicago suburbs. But there's no way to predict which way he would go if he grew up in the projects... fall deeper into ignorance and forsake education like the rest of the 'hood, or strive for excellence and pull himself out. You can't deny that he was shaped by his upbringing though.
  • Pavoir Sponse
    Pavoir Sponse wrote:
    @Passion, I pardon your 'blur mood', asinine comments and relative incoherence.
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    Don't feed the trolls, kids.

    For the Han people, the Chinese nation is an extended family. Talking shit about the middle kingdom is like insulting someone's mother. It doesn't help that English speakers often neglect to explicitly parse government, culture, and nationality when speaking and writing, instead referring obliquely to China as a monolithic entity. It makes perfect sense to us when we read in a newspaper "China says blah blah blah." We know that it means a government spokesperson said it, not everyone in China.

    Consider a group of white kids take a course on the American civil rights movement. Eventually, the professor is going to get lazy and say "whites" instead of "the white supremacist power structure," and a bunch of crackers are going to get butthurt and accuse the poor guy of being racist. Or consider a feminist saying "men" when she means "the patriarchy," and then the guys start whining about how she's sexist and she hates men.

    I think Chinese folks are plenty critical of their own government and culture. But you gotta listen closely because they say it awfully quiet and it is often very difficult to hear with ALL OF THIS FUCKING HARMONY.
  • Pavoir Sponse
    Pavoir Sponse wrote:
    The post is about mindless patriotism generally, (not China) there's lots of it in England and all over the world. The point was for people to think carefully about what was being said before carefully before jumping to defend a specific country.

    Nevertheless Evan, I take your point about generalizing but on the other side it is practical for reasons of communication to sometimes generalize. You for example start off your post with 'The Han People,' I know full well you do not mean every single Han person as a monolithic entity, merely generally speaking.
  • 哎呀
    哎呀 wrote:
    There is nothing wrong to defend your "country". When you defend your country, you actually defend an idea, a view or a truth, not just a hollow concept of a "country".

    But of course the process of "defending" should be based on logical reasoning and ample evidence. Being emotional or starting personal attack would not contribute to any possible consensus.
  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)

    How about when one defends another country, only because one is living there (study and/or work)? That's not really patriotism, right?
  • Joakim Berg Solum
    Nope, that's just herd mentality. Someone wants to get in good with the locals. Either that or some guy just doesn't want to be painted as a dissident.
  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)

    Hahahaha ... good evening Jon, and there are plenty of those on this site ...
  • №❶ Passioη
    @ Gu ... Your view seems quite monomaniac. Unlike an american that you claim to be, I would simply mistaken you for a pure Chinese...

    there is no fallacy in my comment... I'm simply taking your mind where it may never have been: It happens that a person born and raised within a certain culture, society or country has his way of life not influenced by that culture or region. It's just an ability to think and act outside the box - not be confined to the perspective provisions of that culture. I find it hard to understand why a human being may not understand this. I have a friend from Guyana (born and raised in GY) who knows more about Malaysia, Singapore and China than about his own country. And I know black people from the projects and hood who do not listen to hip-hop at all (unlike you would expect)... in fact, they rather like country music and rock. You've probably heard modern phenomena like: "The world is a Global Village" etc... I'll add one more for you: "Personal Principles are more reflected in a free human than Common Culture". It's left for you to choose which side of the coin you are on - 1. sharing a national / central brain created by your national government / culture, or 2. having your own brain to think and reason with (personal principles)

    Just like Evan has pointed out eloquently, it's quite silly to generalize things "Chinese are communists", "Brazilians play football", "Whites are rich", "blacks like hip-hop", "Americans hate afghans" kind of shit which is triggered by the 'national mentality'... Your example would have indeed sounded a bit better if you didn't tone it so snobbishly sarcastic. I hate to say this because many others talk about it too much but it's the closest example to your own comments: did you have any idea Obama is Black? you just said Chicago suburbs, do you have any idea he's from Chicago as well? I hope you did... else you'd be one hell of an ignorant snob .. Did you know Eminem is a hip-hop star and he's white? People being identified by their race, nationality, society or whatever is such a retrospective view of humanity...

    Finally, the ignorance of identifying a person's way of life by nationality or culture persists even around the manifesting evidences of the notion's inappropriateness. Today, millions of Chinese are doing white collar jobs, wearing shirts and tie to work instead of the ancient silk, going clubbing and drinking red wine and scotch instead of playing ma jiang and drinking er guo tou, building skyscrapers instead of pagodas, driving cars instead of riding horses, yet they continue to talk about the difference between Chinese and western culture. Whether you like it or not, the world is a global village and you must share in that global culture. You Dorks Oops... so much typed already on this single crap...

    @ Maria - Patriotism is not wrong, but over-patriotism is... because it arouses some kind of xenophobic sub-consciousness which triggers some kinda repellent attitude towards some very good 'foreign notions and culture' ...

    You Must Learn to Share the World, Share Political Views and Go with the Flow...
  • wrote:
    Dear №❶ Passioη,

    Long time no see you.

    "You Must Learn to Share the World, Share Political Views and Go with the Flow..."
    So how about share your women with me? haha
    I like them more than this topic itself.
  • №❶ Passioη
    @ Carlos, Oops I kinda left you out of the show... cos I don't see something very wrong with your "asinine Britishness" on a Beijing forum YET... especially on a "nonsense" category

    Your turn will come soon enough :P

    @ Sun... I missed you too Buddy, I took my female to Singapore to bid her a sweet farewell, she's going to study in Australia for a year... So I'm free to play again for the while hehe.. Any females you like, just let me know, We'll work it out smoothly ...

    You're welcome :)
  • Peter Baird
    Peter Baird wrote:
    (Ignoring the troll..)

    Show me a country that is beyond reproach, and I'll buy a one way ticket there.
  • Joakim Berg Solum
    @Passion... *sigh* I don't know why I'm even bothering but...

    You either misread, or you are just trolling. I used that example because you can't deny that plenty of project kids end up stuck their rut. But I also said that the same person is just as likely to look around, say "fuck this" and strive for excellence. Either way, the cultural influence is undeniable. And further, I said that if the same person grew up in Chicago suburbs in a wealthy family, his life would be affected quite differently too, IE Obama as in your example, or instead the kid with rich parents who deals weed to all the high-schoolers in Skokie. But if Obama came from a poor welfare family, you can bet your ass he would be talking about how that part of his life affected his path to Presidency.

    My point is not that people are going to act the way that people around them act. The point is that people are influenced by their surroundings. Perhaps you've heard of this word before. Depending on the person, and his capacity for independent thought, he might fall in line, or he might not.

    You say there are 2 sides, joining the herd and doing what everyone around you is doing, or being different and thinking for yourself. I'm saying that even if you go against the norm, you are still influenced by it. For example, if I were a German living under Hitler I might join the Nazi Youth Groups, or I might secretly join the resistance against the Nazi's. But either decision is strongly strongly influenced by my exposure to Nazi Regimes propaganda. If I were in China during that time and instead never been exposed to the European struggle during WW2 I might not give a shit about Hitler and be more worried about a Japanese invasion.

    Hope that clears it up... not that it matters I suppose
  • Joakim Berg Solum
    Also Passion, I love how you say in one line "it's quite silly to generalize things 'Chinese are communists'"

    But right before that you said "Your view seems quite monomaniac. Unlike an american that you claim to be, I would simply mistaken you for a pure Chinese... "

    Does anyone else see the irony?
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    @Passion: Please don't co-op my words and don't drop my name as though I'm backing you up. I want nothing to do with you.
  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)

    Hahahaha ... did I hear someone said Australia?

    Passion my good sir, which city is your lady friend going to stay in Australia? If it happens to be on the east coast, I do have a few friends who could help make any arrangements if necessary ... just let me know ...
  • №❶ Passioη
    @ 叮噹 Hehe.. it's Perth and we got everything arranged + my cousin lives near there. Thanks buddy it's just for a year and I know she'll be fine ;)

    Evan Hall, Dont get it wrong - I don't like you any more than you like me... Anyone can make references to others' words to support a notion... After all, it's an open forum :)

  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)

    Hahaha ... no worries ... if she happens to visit the east coast (esp Sydney and Melbourne) and needs help with anything, just give me a yell, and I will see what I can do ...

    Take care bud ...
  • 王经纬
    王经纬 wrote:

    “How about when one defends another country, only because one is living there (study and/or work)? That's not really patriotism, right?”

    hahahahah hahahhahaha ++++++++
  • 王经纬
    王经纬 wrote:
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    Passion: That's fine. Just don't be disingenuous and say you agree when you really do not.

    哪咤: Pardon me?
  • TonyDice
    TonyDice wrote:
    Passion and Sun, on the pull together. Lock up your daughters! No, seriously... they're rapists
  • №❶ Passioη
    hehe... not only daughters... don't forget to lock up your sisters, wives, mas and possibly grandmas too

    By so doing, Only the really sexy victims will remain free and available :D
  • DonkeyTonk
    DonkeyTonk wrote:
    Question to all the Laowai:

    Do you often find yourself defending your country to chinese but also defending China to those back home?

    I find myself doing it all the time. It's like I'm stuck right in the middle of a moderate viewpoint while everyone around me has it so wrong. Am I going mad?
  • wrote:

    You are not mad, this state proves that you are a normal person, you do not like to lie and want others to know each other more.
  • Save Our Planet
    I will defend any country whose people are happy and reluctant to change place to live.

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