Discussion » Chinese Language & Culture » Would you walk by?

  • Wanderer
    Wanderer wrote:
    <p>don't know if anyone has seen this on Chinasmack</p> <p><a href="http://www.chinasmack.com/2011/videos/2-year-old-chinese-girl-ran-over-by-van-ignored-by-18-bystanders.html">http://www.chinasmack.com/2011/videos/2-year-old-chinese-girl-ran-over-by-van-ignored-by-18-bystanders.html</a></p> <p>A 2 year old is hit by a van and then minutes pass while people walk on by without offering any assistance. An absolutely&nbsp;dreadful example of how sick to the core this society is.</p>
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  • Saint - Spartacus

    not like that everywhere in china , when i'm 12, i've an car accident , a truck pass over my foot and the driver get down immidiately, there are at least 10 people shout loudly at the moment of the accident , and i was sent to the hospital by the driver  ... ... 

    even in china , it's not the same case in each accident .

  • Saint - Spartacus

    that infomation post in that website is totaly a shit , and it's just spread a sort of image , make a tag ? impressive ? lol, news alway a new , top new always have to be a shock and make a top ratings

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  • Saint - Spartacus

    exact !

    this case  which mention in the web realtive to everywhere , not only china

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  • Saint - Spartacus

    not relevant  = advisory = underground = haha 

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  • A豆腐
    A豆腐 wrote:

    [...] An absolutely dreadful example of how sick to the core this society is.

    I think you are wrong, because the proportion of motherfuckers among human beings is an universal constant, no matter country or the Age, but 20% in Spain means +/- 9x106 motherfuckers, In China means +/- 2x108 motherfuckers, so the probabilities of have a motherfucker-encounter in China are very high. 

    Would you walk by? No, the nuns in the school taught us christian morality through hard bloody punishments.

     

     

  • Pavoir Sponse
    Pavoir Sponse wrote:

    I would have tried to capture the whole thing on my camera phone, and used it as part of an erotic art installation at a later date...

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  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    Far from even being evidence of bona-fide motherfuckery, we're only talking about mere acquiescence to motherfuckery, a well-documented social psychological phenomenon known as the bystander effect. Examples abound.

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  • Tina
    Tina's猫 wrote:

    this little girl is under the emergent curing currently and ppl are all talking about this today, i really feel sad after i watched the vedio and saw those pictures.this society is too much sick as we can imagine,and i totally agree with the "china can never be superpower if it ignores the basic humanity".not at all! i hope the girl could survive,but i highly doubt it. recently have been really thinking about the things happened: to help a old lady who falls down to get urself into the trouble? after those debates, i actually chose to step off the trouble if this really happens, which was also the survey result online, most ppl said they will not help.but after this little girl's tragedy, i loath myself to think like that. i will help,yes,no matter what the consequence will be, just because i wanna be a human, with heart and soul.

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  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    Ugh. The point I have been trying to make is that this has nothing to do with Chinese society in particular or public morality in general. It's a culturally universal tendency for bystanders to, well, stand by instead of involving themselves in other people's troubles.

    Altruism, or going out of one's way to help someone else is definitively abnormal. But abnormality is not necessarily a bad thing. Here we would call it heroic.

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  • Rick (史大龙)

    I agree with Astaroth, How can people just walk past an innocent little child? This is beyond comprehension.... Whether you can do something or not or if she was already dead or not, this is a human being! The driver was later quoted saying “if she dies then he might only have to pay 20,000 Yuan, but if she lives then he could forced to pay hundreds of thousands”. How can people have such little regard for a person, someone’s little girl? 

     

  • A豆腐
    A豆腐 wrote:

    @DD, where did you find that pic? :O
    @Dando, I really didn´t heard about that effect.
    @Eva, I had in mind that expresion ¨hijos de puta¨, when I wrote motherfuckers. One very stupid video www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1NnmRmDLc4
    @Alex, you are right, but Birds of a feather flock together and sometimes share the same nest or hole. There are some streets in Spain, where if this happens to an adult person, no only walk on by without offering any assistance will happen, also pick pockets... 

     

  • Malin Aaker
    Malin Aaker wrote:

    Yeah there are studies like this that show if you have an accident and need help it's better to have only one person around than to have a whole crowd.

    It's based on social proof. When you're in a big group, you mimic your behavior on the one of those around you. You "decide" what is normal to do based on what others around you are doing. This is usually a useful reflex in life. Like if you're an animal in a herd and suddenly 3 of them around you start running in the same direction, instead of staying there and assessing the situation by yourself, you run because "there probably is a good reason to".

    Same thing goes on here. Sadly. There's not much to call these people on, it's a behavior that's hard wired in us. So if no one is doing anything, it's very unlikely that someone in the middle of there will start helping.

    The studies that have been made about this sometimes included fire escaping from a roof. If there's a single bystander, he calls for help most of the time.

    Then they put 2 fake bystanders that are talking and acting like nothing is wrong. The other people passing by will almost never call.

  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)

    。。。

    (continued) ... Adolfo, I just went to google "sexy nun", and she was one of the images ...

  • Father Of Boring

    So, did anyone call an ambulance?

  • Silje Linnerud

    some old lady helped the little girl and found her mother. This old lady is a waster picker. 

  • Lars Ramstad
    Lars Ramstad wrote:

    Did president Hu watch this? If he has watched it, would he blush with shame?Is he gonna stop brainwashing people into morally bankcrupt selfish bastards and start to look back at our glorious 5000 years of civilization? Look what you've turned our country into! 

    This is no longer China. This is hell on earth. 

  • Daniel
    Daniel wrote:

    The bystander effect is a bit difficult to apply here as a lot of those that ignored her were passing by alone, with no bystanders to affect them.

    I'm also aware of the Nanjing judge incident, but I'm not convinced that this is a justification: surely moral instinct should trump reported knowledge of stupid decisions if you were brought up that way. That story about the Chinese woman catching the baby from a high fall springs to mind: she not only acted but did so with considerable and immediate risk. 

    I'm also not convinced this happens in every country to the same scale, and like many Chinese netizens, think it signals a deeper rooted societal problem as an extreme example of rampant self-interest.

  • Daniel
    Daniel wrote:

    I showed this video to my class tonight. they didn't see it yet

    I'm also wondering what the merits are of showing this video in a class-room setting other than to bitch and moan about the county you're in? 

  • High Priest
    High Priest wrote:

    I blame the mother of the child, or who ever was meant to be caring for the child. She neglected her child. A child should not be let out to walk on the street alone.

    Kids are not easy to raise. In a bink of an eye, a kid can sneak out without u knowing. I saw another video on youtube, a father who drove on his son, he didn't realise that his kid jumped from the car window and went straight in from of the car.

    Well, most laowai have noticed sometime an accidented person left alone by the crowd with no help. These people doing so, have no heart. Not only Chinese, it happens many placed. In the Philippines for instance, I saw a bus driver who hit someone, this person was to be alive if brought to the hospital. The driver came back and ran over the head of the guy and finished him.

    I was totally lost. Then I got an explanation that, if someone is killed, he's gonna pay just 60,000pesos to the family. it could be about 8500rmb and that's all. But if the person is alive, the medical expenses are too much. Lord have mercy!

    People mentioning about a good Samaritan.  Why was that guy good Samaritan? Samaritan were regarded are bad people by jews at that time...but, when the person who needed help was laying on the ground, those so called good people(Priest, a Levite) sam  passed by. The bad person became a good person because he did something that those who were supposed to do didn't do.

    To answer OP question, I won't walk by, I'd do as that woman who touched the trotter. I did it in once. One lady died in East Asian country near my Condo, she was hit from the back of  her bike and flew over 10 meters. The driver was upset as his car and wind shield were damaged, but didn't mind about the lady's state at all. No one to help as this lady who was disfigured; bystanders were just watching passively, my Maylasian friend I forced this guy to carry this lady and get her to the hospital as she died.

    High Priest

  • Michelle Pham
    Michelle Pham wrote:

    Shit! Cried ...! 

  • Malin Aaker
    Malin Aaker wrote:

    By the way those studies showing that a crowd is less prone to react than individual isolated people started after the murder of a girl in New York with no less than 38 people who reported having witnessed it.

    Not much to do with China vs other country if you consider this.

  • Tina
    Tina's猫 wrote:

    i still think it has sth to do with china's society.

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    "The bystander effect is a bit difficult to apply here as a lot of those that ignored her were passing by alone, with no bystanders to affect them."

    You don't seem to understand what the bystander effect is. The imagined presence of other people is sufficient to cause the diffusion of responsibility.

    Refer to the Kitty Genovese case in which 38 (not just 17) people witnessed a murder (not mere vehicular manslaughter) and did not call the police. Many of the witnesses of the murder were within their own homes (that is, alone, and not part of a crowd). There you go. A textbook example of the same sort of callous disregard for other people occurring elsewhere.

    Just looking at the numbers (which Asians are good at!) if I were a Chinese armchair sociologist bent on confirming my own biases about the moral superiority of my own culture based on scant evidence, I might say that Americans are more than twice as susceptible to the bystander effect than Chinese people. After all, the crime was more serious, and more than twice as many people ignored it.

    But then I would be a stupid motherfucker, because we are talking about extremely marginal cases that only come to our attention via the Internet because of how startlingly sensational they are.

    So, I'll repeat: anyone who thinks this proves some sort of inherent moral failing in Chinese society is simply full of shit and attempting to find some sort of fake social scientific basis to justify stereotypes.

  • Daniel
    Daniel wrote:

    Don't have so much time or inclination to hammer out more eloquent rebuttals, so in bullet form:

    1)

    - The bystanders in the Kitty Genovese case experienced distributed responsibilty by virtue of the 'imagined' presence being far more concrete than the word implies: in an apartment building at night, there will be others also living in the rooms. This knowledge led to the explanation that many of the bystanders gave, which was more or less "Someone else will help".

    -In this case every bystander that walked or drove past experienced a situation in which they were the nearest and most direct source of help, a scenario that directly challenges the assumption here that the bystander effect caused these people to move on (there would be very little diffusion of responsibilty)

    -This also appears to be a backstreet rather than in a populated area.

    2)

    -Regarding the universality of this kind of behaviour, point me in the direction of ChinaSmack-esque websites for other countries. I don't dispute the possibility of this behaviour occuring anywhere, however I do challenge the idea that the proportion of it in China is like that of  most countries.

    3) To my mind, the way that the Chinese social networking sites are reacting to this is as another in a long line of examples in which self-interest trumps logic or morality in this country. It ties into big things like the decision to bury the evidence of the train crash and small stuff like the fights you see to get a seat on a bus or subway, The case is marginal and has been sensationalised, however the behaviour it is seen to represent is regarded as wide-spread and commonplace.

    4) To my mind, the opinion of Chinese citizens on this trumps foreign apologist trying to score/appease Chinese nationalist girls.

    5)The 'Netiquette Guide for 13 Year Olds' is failing you here: calling people names on the internet actually isn't the way to resolve disputes. However, if you would like to take the Aggressive Route for Adults, you are very welcome to find me in The Den for any rugby events and continue the name calling there. 

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    1) So, because they're walking, and close to the body, they're no longer mere bystanders? You've got to be kidding. You're grasping at straws here.

    2) Argument from ignorance.

    3) Absolute nonsense. Behaviors are not representative of other behaviors. Provide a systematic evaluation of the inherent Chineseness of the problem, or keep your shallow generalizations to yourself.

    4) Bandwagon, ad hominem, not to mention completely ridiculous that you think I even like nationalistic Chinese girls, or that any girls are amused by dudes arguing on the Internet.

    5) I never called you names. I just provided you with the opportunity to classify yourself in a pejorative category based on your professed attitudes.

    Also, rugby is for queers.

  • A豆腐
    A豆腐 wrote:

    With the people from my country with whom I have talked about this issue, all them had helped her. With my chinese friends with whom I have talked about it, they had also helped her, BUT all them have showed suspicions or afraid of be cheated....

    I being honest, after live here almost 2 years and be cheated many times, I tend to think that in my country this chinese attitude about help others, can be called -mistrust-, but in China the foreign attitude about help others can be called -naivety-.

    And my theory is that this attitude is related with the common psychological traits that people usually develops during a long civil war and a hard post civil war period. Take a look carefully at the chinese old people, and you will find those traits, deeply rooted. The worst is that this attitude to the world can be inherited, pass from generation to generation, and only prosperity and better times can clean this.... Besides this there is the fact of the most influent chinese thinkers (Confucius, Mencius, Mao) lived in periods of civil war or post civil war. [ What had happened if all the influent western thinkers had been clones of Hobbes?] So, you can receive this attitude towards the world from your parents, and you can find the justification in the classical thoughts. Nice Feedback. 

    Leviathan never gets old in China...

  • Mari Vidste
    Mari Vidste wrote:

    According to one study related to the Bystander Effect, more masculine individuals were less likely to help in emergency situations due to fear of embarrassment or "loss of poise."

    Reviewing the video we see that 17 of the 18 who passed by were men (the one woman was with her young child), and that the one who did eventually help was a woman.

    Of course there are masculine women, and feminine men. But none of these men were feminine enough to help. Determining the child to be dead or hopelessly injured, there was nothing left to do but report, and that role is somehow in conflict with masculine psychology.

  • Tina
    Tina's猫 wrote:

    Bystander effect? but the other day the news i heard is opposite,it says men tend to help at the first reaction, they usually will go straight to help,but women will think about it more subconsciously. about the mom with a kid, some ppl think she was more likely to protect her own kid from being terrified from the scene. and today was discussing with my Guangzhou colleague, he said this kind of thing is very commen in foshan,maybe, he pointed out usually the goverment policies or morality education goes and effect slowly to the area ,ppl have their own thinking or behavior system there. i was thinking about this this afternoon. what u guys think?

  • Pavoir Sponse
    Pavoir Sponse wrote:

    Comparing the Genovese case, which is in many ways apocryphal (there were never 37 witnesses), with this one is a largely futile exercise, as has already been pointed out.

    Clearly the Bystander Effect plays a role in many incidents like this, but it would be naive to always make this the sole or even the single most significant factor.

    The suggestion, by several above, is that this type of 'anti-Samaritan' behaviour is more prevalent in China than in other places. Without even attempting to disentangle the Bystander Effect, the extent of this effect almost certainly varies across different cultures any way, I wonder if such an assertion could ever be measured.

    My gut feeling here is that, yes, not coming to people's aid is something that is more prevalent than in many other places. My feeling s only based on the anecdotal, but it would appear to be something that goes back quite some time.

    The Lu Xun story, 'A Little Incident,' is about a Rickshaw puller who knocks down an old lady. The (wealthy) rickshaw passenger absolutely refuses to come to the old lady's aid. It seems he is paralysed by a fear that it will somehow get him into trouble of sometime, that he will get dragged into problems that are not his. On reading it I remember thinking, ‘God that’s just like China today’, probably lazy thinking on my part.

    On a few occasions I have been warned off going to help people as apparently it could cause me trouble and cost me money, and there does seem to be a very deep compensation culture here with people demanding money off each other for the most trivial of incidents.

    As I said, these things are very difficult to measure, but I wonder to what extent people in China are scared of helping others for fear of being dragged through an accountable, Kafkaesque bureaucracy, which they worry would only make them suffer?

  • Daniel
    Daniel wrote:

    1) Closer proximity to other perceived or imagined bystanders would dispel the diffusion of responsibilty by virtue of the individual encountering the feeling of primary responsibilty. In simple terms, everyone passing would have felt, at some moment, that they were the most able to provide aid. This is not the same as the Kitty Genovese case.

    2) You are the one who's on the side of the argument that considers the scale of this behaviour to be nothing out of the norm. I'm simply asking for better examples than a vaguely similar occurrence 40 years ago? (Which by the way, is a ridiculous comparison to make whilst living in a country that has changed drastically in the past 30 years)

    3)Behaviours are not representative of other behaviours? Congratulations on logically cracking the profiling debate.It's not like we use criminal records the gauge the trustworthiness of potential employees.

    4) So other people have noticed it? 

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    1) [citation needed]

    Of course they're not the same: they're different crimes, in different countries, at different times. Wow! It's so sharp for you to point out the difference. They are, however, far more similar than the train wreck or any of the other anecdotal evidence of callousness with Chinese characteristics to which you alluded.

    In any case, you've missed the point. As the bystander effect shows--and the Kitty Genovese case is only one such example--helping other people is abnormal. Less than half of bystanders voluntarily help people in need. I think that all we can really say is that Chinese people are extremely normal in this regard. 

    2) Very little can be said about the scale of behaviors without aggregating them systematically and actually doing some actual fucking math. Selected comments from a clearly edited video reposted on a blog are not sufficient justification for blanket statements comparing the morals of several billion people with the rest of the goddamned world.

    As Carlos points out, it could very well be true that the quantum of giving-a-shit-about-strangers could vary from country to country, but proving it is another matter entirely.

    But hey you have a degree in armchair sociology, don't you? So prove it for us. And show your work.

    3) Yup. There's no shortage of anecdotal evidence of law enforcement officials demonstrating outright hostility to fundamental sociological premises. The effectiveness of criminal profiling is definitely up for debate. It really only filters out the applicants dumb enough to get caught and poor enough that they couldn't get the charges expunged from their criminal records.

    4) No. Just you and me. Shhh~

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    When did I or anyone say the matter was closed? There is something to be said for "Nanjing judges" erroneously punishing Good Samaritans which might explain Chinese people's hesitance to act heroically. That was noted above. It's easy to miss when the butthurt OP is slap-happy with the "mark as irrelevant" function.

    But I think it's utterly pointless to use stories like this to evaluate the morality of a society, except that doing so exposes the preconceptions of the person making the evaluation. It's not something that can be objectively measured.

    I really do so enjoy talking about racism. And sexism. In fact, this thread reminds me of a recent pre-emptive trolling attempt, where I said that white dudes who blame their yellow fever on the perceived shortcomings of white women are unworthy of Chinese females' attention. I used crude pejorative language about stereotypifiers much like I am doing here.

    I ruthlessly insulted a group of people who, in my view, were guilty of making generalizations about white chicks, and they predictably defended their generalizations--based exclusively on anecdotal observations--as nonetheless objective, scientific, rational, and therefore sacrosanct.

    Newsflash: they ain't. We're debating the relative merits of competing narratives. Small wonder that people complain so much about how crude my style of storytelling is.

  • Simen Wangberg

    "why when I was little I learnt to write behaviour but my word processor says the correct one is behavior?"

    Because American exceptionalism.

  • High Priest
    High Priest wrote:

    Sometime we fail to save a life for fear and being out of touch. We now tend to put much attention on making our own lives better casual__Making money, enjoy life and so on. This is not only about this little girl who needed help and passers by didn't just care, who knows if she that lady came before the second van run over her, she could be alive even though cripled all her life? H

    Sometime, we see a starving man or woman needing just one Yuan to buy a steamed bread, but we reject to offer?

    High Priest

  • High Priest
    High Priest wrote:

    WOuld u break it down a little:)

  • High Priest
    High Priest wrote:

    Oh that's a nice one.

  • Mengmeng
    Mengmeng wrote:

    To answer the question: I wouldn't in this case because it was obvious that I wouldn't be the criminal who hit the kid. But if an old lady fell down, I would be a bit suspicious of what really happened and ask others to help together if it seems true, sorry for my hesitation here, but I have heard of some 碰瓷 stories.

    I expected to find some posts talking about solutions, but it seems only one or two mentioned improving social and medical system or a time of prosperity. I think a good doctor is someone who not only can diagnose what disease his patient has but also how to cure him.

    "And my theory is that this attitude is related with the common psychological traits that people usually develops during a long civil war and a hard post civil war period. "-- I got the picture of herbivores, they are scrupulous, alerts, well-prepared to run for their lives. While the carnivores are bold, tough, ready to take actions. Maybe we Chinese eat too much vegetables, perhaps we should change our recipes.

    For people who think this society is sick to the core, I think maybe we are exposed to too much negtive reports nowdays. I rarely read news online or watch TV in recent years, there are always way too much sensational news online which I believe it would turn me into cynical people if I keep reading. I think this kind of accidents always catch more attention than heroic stories. And TV news, on the contrary, always deludes Chinese that there is no better place than China. So in my opinion, people who think there are more dishonesty in China is the same with Chinese (like my parents) who believe China is the only safe and harmonious land. If you are kind, always read to help, don't change. My friends also give me a lot of kind advices, but I am the one who make decisions.

  • High Priest
    High Priest wrote:

    Some people live in dangerous places as they can't afford renting a confortable place. Raising kid is one of the most difficult tast in life. In a blink of a eye a child can just go missing. Once a kid a out he or she will be just going in any direstion.

    I've got something to complain about some drivers I see around, they are just not patient at all. Even if they see a parent with a Child crossing, they can't even wait...

    Even this poor girl who just passed away, I'm not sure if the driver got good eyes or not, he could have noticed this toddler walking, as they were many in the van, he might be perhaps talking to the other guys without paying attention to the front.

    But, as someone said above, what happened here is a wake up call for this society, the society is sick, something should be done.

  • High Priest
    High Priest wrote:

    That's true. It makes me sick when I see people buying hybrid cars but they can't drive them properly.

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    "Chinese can't drive" is a considerably more tasteful stereotype than "Chinese aren't helpful."

  • Pavoir Sponse
  • High Priest
    High Priest wrote:

    Really, there more pathetic internauts out here. I guess the meaning of life has evaporated. Much needs to be done to reculture the nation.

    What kind of fame this old woman would be seeking? People got no shame. 

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