Discussion » Nonsense » do you think more chinese people support communism

  • Joligne
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    意思意思:

    Ask Chinese people what they think.

    Don't ask people what they think Chinese people think.

  • Reply from 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹) is flagged as not relevant.

  • Ejdnzlaj
    Ejdnzlaj wrote:

    Why not... ask Chinese people?

  • Pavoir Sponse
    Pavoir Sponse wrote:

    I have yet to meet (as far as I can recall) a single Chinese person who is a communist believer, at least in any Marxist sense of the word. In fact, I would venture that there aren't too many sympathizers worldwide. 

    We live in the age of the shopping mall and television, after all; who gives a fuck about Communism?

  • Joligne
    Joligne wrote:

    WOW, agree with Ami , never exist

  • Joligne
    Joligne wrote:

    agree with Moon

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    "individualism is exist"

    This statement rings hollow coming from someone who uses troll accounts.

  • Joligne
    Joligne wrote:

    @ dando ,

    who do u refer to ? what do u mean uses troll accounts ?

  • Pavoir Sponse
    Pavoir Sponse wrote:

    Communism doesn't exist? It's an abstract political theory and exists as such.

    If you are saying there aren't any societies that operate on communists principles then fine, but when were there ever?

  • Joligne
    Joligne wrote:

    hahahaahaha , thanks MOON !~

  • Da Fan
    Da Fan wrote:

    for a very long time, there are only one "-sm" that exists in China: cynicism. Communism? what hell's that?

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    Dando posts quoted text from Moonie aka LL.

    Joligne asks, "who do u refer to?"

    Now that you mention it, the negligent landlady and the 腐二代 make a pretty good team.

  • Joligne
    Joligne wrote:

    @ Dando :

    these are the rules for u , since u've been here for long time .  u r nothing good but insulting others.

    * Rules for posting
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    1. Do not advertise for any commercial or private product and/or service.
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  • Da Fan
    Da Fan wrote:

    I'm trying to figure out a way to create a socialism society ran by a small gov., but still no results, anyway.

  • Joligne
    Joligne wrote:

    @ Da Fan:

    are you ? that's an ambitious idea.

  • Da Fan
    Da Fan wrote:

    没开玩笑,在我看来欧洲很多国家,还有加拿大之类的地方都是在走社会主义路线,我觉得挺好的。如果能控制政府规模和权利,在我看来,这制度完胜。只可惜,总得有组织跳出来维持“大社会”的格局。不是政府,又能是谁呢。作为无政府主义者,我想不清楚

  • Da Fan
    Da Fan wrote:

    @Scott, yeah, that's why i cannot figure it out. Maybe, a co-op giant NGO-like organization could take the rule. anyway, take it as half-kidding craps~

  • Da Fan
    Da Fan wrote:

    Only two things the US gov need to do to help itself get out of the mess: taxation, and tell those umemployed to stop day dreaming and start to learn sth that can match up with the current productivity level.

    Unfortunately, neither is easy. You cannot always ask your voters to pay more and more, and tell your people that if they don't have a job, it is purely because they don't deserve one in this country.

    btw, "在我看来欧洲很多国家,还有加拿大之类的地方" logically and grammatically = canada is not a european country in Chinese :)

  • Da Fan
    Da Fan wrote:

    Only two things the US gov need to do to help itself get out of the mess: taxation, and tell those umemployed to stop day dreaming and start to learn sth that can match up with the current productivity level.

    Unfortunately, neither is easy. You cannot always ask your voters to pay more and more, and tell your people that if they don't have a job, it is purely because they don't deserve one in this country.

    btw, "在我看来欧洲很多国家,还有加拿大之类的地方" logically and grammatically = canada is not a european country in Chinese :)

  • Kevin Chen
    Kevin Chen wrote:

    if this chinese people can have high level 

    understand how this world working 

    he should support 

    communism

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    @Da Fan, Scott, et. al., Anarcho-syndicalism worked all right in Spain until Franco fucked it all up. Historically speaking, socialism only "works" within the context of limited, small-scale, localized government, otherwise it becomes a degenerate klepto-bureaucracy.

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    Where the fuck is Adolfo? I'm not going to 班门弄斧 about the Republican Spain.

    People who say socialism and communism are "impossible" or "contrary to human nature" are counter-revolutionaries who should at least be denounced, if not reeducated, if not rounded up, if not ground into sausage.

  • A豆腐
    A豆腐 wrote:

    The most of them are too busy trying to make ends meet. And the others are also busy living a good life surrounded by luxury. So in the end, no time to pay attention to such issues. 

    Beside this, one of the favourite citizen hobbies, take part in real demonstrations, can not be practised here. China doesn't have proper places to practise it, the streets are dangerous, since you can be run over by a tank.

    For these reasons, there is no such thing as ´´culture´´ of mess with the goverment, only respect and keep silent. The real dream of any goverment around the world. I think most of the goverments envy the chinese goverment...

  • Pavoir Sponse
    Pavoir Sponse wrote:

    Scott you seemed to have bought into a false political narrative largely disseminated by the Right, hook, line and sinker.

    Socialism and small government are not remotely oxymoronic. To say "By definition, socialism is heavy government involvement in most of society's affairs." is utter bullshit. There is nothing within socialism's definition per se that advocates big government  per se. 

    Having co-operative rather corporate ownership of the means of production, alongside equitable power distributuon does not mean big government. People are always using examples of various faux Communist governments to show why Marxism and or Communisim have failed, but in reality they've had nothing to do with true socialism at all.

    In fact, one could argue that it was precisely because of the nature of their respective 'big governments' that they were not successful.

    Da Fan's desire is eminently, though sadly not imminenetly, achieveable and I suspect the biggest barrier to it actually happening is people's belief that it actually can.

    Saying that I'm increasingly getting into Anarcho-Primitivism, but, hey, that's what the Unabomber was in to, and he bombed people and stuff.

    Still as Morrissey said, it's the Bomb, the Bomb, the Bomb, the Bomb, the Bomb, the Bomb, the Bomb that will bring us together.

  • Pavoir Sponse
    Pavoir Sponse wrote:

    Scott, it's called Libertarian Socialism, it doesn't have much to do with government programs or wealth at all, in fact it ideally dispenses with government altogether (I won't go into too much detail, as you are free to read up on it at your leisure, perhaps start with some Chomsky?)

    I'm not hugely familiar with the pop-culture you reference, nor how it frames my thinking, but growing up my father lived in the woods (in Devon, hurrah), in a hut he built, with no running water, or indeed mains electricity (that's not to say he dropped out altogether, of course; he owned a petrol generator and everything. He seemed pretty happy, but maybe he was 'tricked' as you put it.

    The GOP? I'll assume that was an attempt at humour

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    @Scooter, Socialism is was the "natural order" for most of human prehistory, and indeed it's capitalism requires the protection of a state with a monopoly on force. Perhaps you'd like to present an example of a market economy that regulated itself (start by looking in Somalia!).

    There's really no relationship between the "size" or "power" of the government and the political economy, and revolutionary Spain is a pretty good example of a functioning decentralized socialist model. Moreover, if you spent time outside of Beijing you'd see that Beijing really has limited influence on local cadres.

    When you have a weak government, other instutions peform its duties. Would you prefer that be military or corporations?

    BTW, Breivik was not an anarcho-primitivist. Dr. Strangelove was a former Nazi.

  • Pavoir Sponse
    Pavoir Sponse wrote:

    Do you really want me to cut and paste Noam Chomsky quotes to a prove a point, it would be a little pointless and somewhat gauche I feel? Giving a full and detailed exposition of Libertarain Socialism would rather bore people, and I try my best not to do that.

    I'm not saying I know lots about anything, (in fact I know very little), that goes for Buddhism, Daoism, Situationism, Anarchism and Socialism. I'm no expert in any of these fields, but they all inform my thinking to some degree.

    I merely pointed out that there is a political position that is, yes, socialist, and not particularly incorporatative of big government. Which you wrongly stated were contradictory. It would appear, and this does not surprise me, that you have a somewhat singular and limited idea of what Socialism is.

  • Pavoir Sponse
    Pavoir Sponse wrote:

    oh just clarify, when I was growing up my father lived in his hut without running water, he grew up in a regular house.

  • Pavoir Sponse
    Pavoir Sponse wrote:

    Scott, full of gusto,  you said socialism was incompatible with small government by definition, I just pointed out this was not neccessarily the case.

    My 'getting into' Anarcho-Primitivism was more about becoming interested in it and reading a little around it (John Zerzan et al), like one might be really getting into their Buryatian history, say. It is of particular interest due to to my father's rather outre former lifestyle.

    I'm not pro-bombing per se, though I do confess to rather naughty, atavistic urges when I walk through Sanlitun Village.

    And as for human technological advancement (is there a non-human kind?), yes, I am a bit of a luddite. Though, I suspect Dando is not.

     

  • Saint - Spartacus

    my dad told me do never join communism party 10 years ago
    ...

    and i 've strong feeling that life could be a totaly artificial mode under this  false ''communism '' construction . Under this influnce, it could be a metamorphose of mind, spirt , and public inner value . And  it could reverse all civilization... ...

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    (a) OH NOES I CALLS A SCOTT A CUTE NAME SO I MUST HAS NO INTELLIGUNTZ. Cry about it.

    (b) How about instead you tell me at what point in human development property law emerged. Redistribution of scarce resources has occured since fucking forever. It used to be a task performed by the dude with the biggest club. Now we can build institutions for selecting who gets the club.

    (c) For one thing, I never said that; I simply invoked it as an example of a functioning modern anarcho-syndicalist society. Revolutionary Spain refers to a particular point in Spanish history. It's a chapter heading in textbooks. Are we going to fast for you? Does George Fucking Orwell ring a bell?

    (d) You have a juvenile understanding of anarchy. Here's a hint: it doesn't mean "no rules lol". It means "against rulership;" Essentially, resistance against centralized systems.

  • High Priest
    High Priest wrote:

    Before coming to China, I had this question asking Chinese pals about communism, they didn't know much about it. They couldn't offer me answers to some of my questions and they didn't just like it as they were saying it brough them into misery. 

    Most of them were happy with the insertion of capitalism concepts by late Deng,and they think Deng had brought them to prosperity.

    In my humble view, communism is against human nature, we are individualistics by nature. Everyone would like to have something that he or she owns by herself, once there is mass ownership, it can bring discontent and free-riding would take place if people have to work without motivation.

    I don't like capitalism to, we've seen what greed has done to the wall street and to whole world...

    I believe that applying mix-economy is good for a state. I think monopoly should be used to some sectors such as health, or energy...Imagine Tibet doesn't have anything attractive to business, if the energy sector is in the hands of privates, I don't see any company that can put post from Bj or wherever to get to Tibet, they would be in the dark for years. But the governent care of the wellfare of all its people and would provide its people with what they need. The bottomline for the privates is profit, whereas government doesn't care  about profit.

    High Priest

  • 外交猫
    外交猫 wrote:

    Most Chinese people aren't qualified to answer the question properly, so whether they "support" or are "against" communism is meaningless.  I can't remember ever meeting a Chinese person who knows what communism really is, and I taught at one of the most prestitigious political universities in China for two years.

    Chinese kids are not taught about real Marxism in school, socialism is forever kept as a vague concept, and communism is basically defined as "whatever the government of China says it is."  So it's not surprising that the average Chinese would not be able to accurately describe authentic communism.  I don't pretend to be an expert myself -- I read The Communist Manifesto a few times, mostly because it's so short, but otherwise never picked up any Marx.  But even with that small education I found myself with a much broader conceptual understanding of communism than almost any Chinese person I talked to.

    Any question about supporting communism in modern China might really be asking "do you support the Communist Party?"  And that's a totally different question that invokes a totally different set of responses.  I'm not sure what Joligne's intent was, however.

    I should mention that it does appear that WLIB sports quite a few Chinese who do indeed know and understand what communism is.

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    I think the way Deng and others were able to steer the party away from a political economy more in line with Marxist/Maoist/communist theory was through "socialism with Chinese characteristics". Essentially, the market reformers argued that because sharing is a traditional Chinese value, Chinese people are already socialist, therefore actual socialist policies are unnecessary in China. DEVELOPMENT!

    Of course, it goes without saying that culture is a poor replacement for modern institutions, hence new social problems related to the imbalances in development. Those imbalances are not only class-oriented, but geographic in character, and engender an effective feudalism in which rural citizens are faced with a dilemma of either (1) receiving meager social welfare benefits for staying and tending to their dirt farms, or (2) going to the city in search of work and being treated like second class citizens.

    Orthodox Maoism is something that probably puckers the poopers of the present paradigm.

  • Da Fan
    Da Fan wrote:

    Nice to read all the inputs you guys leave here, quite insightful, even debates exist. Btw, I'm gonna see Chomsky in a seminar soon. Hopefully he's more interested in these issues we are talking, instead of boring linguistics theories.

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    I missed Chomsky when he was in Beijing. But I don't think I missed much.

  • Ejdnzlaj
    Ejdnzlaj wrote:

    Chomsky's lingustic theories aren't boring though... or am I just a nerd?

  • Da Fan
    Da Fan wrote:

    yeah, they are not boring at all, but you know, you don't want to hear them everyday...

    yeah, he's still alive...==

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    I'm sure he'll be raising hell with Howard Zinn shortly.

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    No. I had a little "media blackout" of my own last weekend. And by that I mean the local intelligence ministry made me drink Chinese wine until I blacked out and woke up in a pool of vomit and urine soaking into the nice white sheets of my luxury suite. And I think pooped in the shower. At least I think that was my poop. My asshole was shitty.

    The most chilling thing about waking up like this is seeing my shoes were placed against the door neatly. WHO DID THIS TO ME?!

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