Discussion » Beijing Life » 600,000 Foreigners working in China Only 230,000 h

  • Monique
    Monique wrote:
    <p>Starting from Oct. 15, the employers who hired foreigners are entitled to pay Social Security tax in China. Employees are to pay 1,200rmb, employers 4,300 rmb per head. i doubt those who has no work permit.&nbsp; Will they be exempted?</p>
  • Nadia Scheie
    Nadia Scheie wrote:

    yes~ you ar right,and I think there has alot ppl didnt get a work visa~

     

  • Ejdnzlaj
    Ejdnzlaj wrote:

    Alot of places also lie and say they'll give you a Z visa and then don't. I'm also surprised there are as few as 600,000 non-Chinese nationals working in China. That's a tiny amount!

  • Nadia Scheie
    Nadia Scheie wrote:

    but they dont have to pay tax i guess

  • Joligne
    Joligne wrote:

    where did  u get that statistic number of what u stated OP?  their salary is really too high compare to a pitful salary of normal Chinese worker in China. trash become treasure in China....

  • Joligne
    Joligne wrote:

    foreigners have to pay high tax!!! and they can't get refund forever and ever!~ wahahahaha

  • Jonas Mikkelsen

    is this news true?

  • Joakim Lund Rangel

    Where did you get the number 600,000 from?

  • Rick (史大龙)

    What is the point to pay the tax if there is no benifits for the foreigners? 

  • Joligne
    Joligne wrote:

    beneffit for Chinese, foreigner's income is way much higher compare with local Chinese . that's the urge CCP should deal with. if u dont want to pay high tax, u can leave for home. there always be foreigner would like to come and live here and pay tax!~ wahahahaha

  • Jonas Mikkelsen

    is it per month or a year?

  • Ejdnzlaj
    Ejdnzlaj wrote:

    You didn't really refute his argument. You just insulted him as a person. That's not debate, that's just being an idiot. If you want to prove someone wrong, you need to use logic to build a solid argument.

  • №❶ Passioη

    According to Rahul's link, the fine for non-compliance could be 3 times higher hehe. Wow! Another hotdrop for CCP's ever deeper pockets... and subtly focking foregners is the best of the recent ideas for China's development... I bet getting a cent back from that fund after resignation / retirement will be practically impossible for most people... Sure this new law will rather increase the number of illegal foreign workers; than send some people back home as expected.

    1. Which chinese boss wanna pay 37%? Chinese SME's (who need foreign workers) as first on the reluctancy list will find a way around it even if it means illegalizing the status of their current expats. Trust me, That's another social problem created by a "social solution". 

    2. Do these law-makers think about how negatively extra bureaucratic procedures affect productivity? Sure the pace of China's development in the macro pespective is fantastic... but imagine if everyone contributing to that development didn't have to spend 7% of the production time in unrelated paperwork and state required processes.

    3. How do hong-kongers and macanese feel about this one? Home but not really home. Any SAR citizen in the house?

    @ All babbling PRC chinese who think foreigners earn too much - Did you check the living expenses of a foregner and compare it with yours? hmmm... think again. e.g: the apartment I was offered outside my organization premises costs RMB18,000 / month. And I was made to understand it would cost less if I was Chinese

  • K5-35
    K5-35 wrote:

    Good God, I feel that I am obliged to say, Scott, you just happen to sound like a self opinionated megalomania occassionally, from time to time. Of course, it is just your opinion, man, and I don't feel the comments above offensive at all, just a bit ignorant, even the American President gets replaced on a regular basis ergo you are quite something to make the irresponsible and arrogant statements above. 

    Let's say, there are plenty of Chinese who are able to replace you, we just can't be assed. 

    Chinese policy is very lenient already towards entrance clearance and immigration, as it is becoming a promising land of opportunities, it is time to deliberate a set of more impartial, globalized and efficient policies on foreign workers. I don't think it is worthy aruging that all developed governments collect Personal Income Taxes, and the absence of welfare system for foriegners? is the basis of your lower income tax rate.

    No offense to international friends who contribute to the "future of our socialist economy", with or without a work permit. :)  

  • Tedd Aspen Stensløkken

    'No offense to international friends who contribute to the "future of our socialist economy", with or without a work permit. :)  "

    No need to be kind to them, because most countries are not friendly to Chinese in their countries, and it is five or even ten times easier for non-Chinese to find a job than Chinese can in those countries, so their citizens have no reason to ask a better treatment from China, actually, China and her people are much kinder to foreigner people than any other countries on earth.

    We Chinese don't own them. To treat them the same as that they treat Chinese is the best way. For example, most African and Indian customs charges extra money or intimidate Chinese to bribe them, some Chinese are discriminated in some eastern Asian countries, Chinese custom can also ask extra fee from them if they want to enter into China, this is fair business, don't be stupid to believe that you are kind to them, and then they will be friendly to you, NO, it is not the real world.

  • Tedd Aspen Stensløkken
  • High Priest
    High Priest wrote:

    @Scott, you made some good comments, but went to far ruining them by declaring that what u do here around, Chinese can't do it. I wonder what's that bro? Please enlight us to know a special skill that you've got and we shall pay more respect to you. As far as I know, picking up girls in bars is one of them, what's more?

    As for ur question, HP works for no salary.  But if I worked to get paid 6k like you do, I will park and ready to leave mainland for Vanuatu where I can be fishing and swimming.

    High Priest

  • Joligne
    Joligne wrote:

    China no longer needs foreign capital, but the technology and people who know how to use to contribute to this land. I tend to believe that those who don’t have a working visa are not Sci-tech elites that china need.

  • Reply from Joligne is flagged as not relevant.

  • Joligne
    Joligne wrote:

    tax is going to be much heavier on every Chinese's shoulder!~  no foreigner excepted either!~

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    That's it? No big deal. Mooncake taxes seem to be the greater injustice.

    As a newly-minted foreign expert, I can't complain, even with the knowledge that I'll never collect social security benefits here. I'm paying less in taxes than I would (and still technically should) pay in the USA.

    Previously, I taught without a work permit for three years and never paid even 一毛 in taxes. Employers always said that they took care of that detail for me, but that is, of course, total bullshit, just like their promises to furnish me with the necessary documents to get a work permit.

    Many of those undocumented foreign workers are eligible for work permits, and most of them want one, but their employers are typically cheap and corrupt. So, let's keep in mind that the 'foreign trash' problems of working without a permit and not paying taxes are mostly due to the greed of Chinese employers.

    @Joligne and @Monique are certainly correct in their assertions, but because they cannot defend their arguments with anything except for shallow prejudice and personal attacks, they're really no better than trolls like @Dudu. It's rare enough that you're on the right side of an argument, but what's the point if you're going to lose face by making cheap insults instead of rational arguments?

  • Olaf G.
    Olaf G. wrote:

    Foreigners only have to pay tax on any amount above (I beleive) 5800RMB... where as Chinese nationals have to pay on anything above 1800RMB.... So, yes, Chinese nationals do pay alot more tax than us on the same pay scale....

    Its 800 rmb for foreigners.

    The new taxes have two problems: Firstly it makes illegal employment more attractive. Second it is kind of stealing money from foreigners as there is no means that they will ever benefit from any social insurance or anything like that. In my country resident foreigners who worked for a couple of years can get unemployment money. We foreigner cannot get that in china.

  • Sol Irén Ulvang

     i haven't worked in 5 years. i have all i want and enjoy life. do i need a job?

     

    Am i pathetic or clever? 

  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)

    。。。

    Hahahaha ... someone asks for a SAR people? me me me ... honestly, I dont really know how much tax I am paying, but I know that I am paying something called tax :)

    DuDu wrote, some Chinese are discriminated in some eastern Asian countries ... of the little geography that I know, you were referring to Japan? or Korea? or, wow, China itself?

  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)

    。。。

    (continued) ... I did write three pages in my previous resond, but when I started talking about Stone Age, I know I had lost track of time and space ...

    I know as a fact that some local Chinese, who might not have studied or worked overseas, get better pay than their foreign colleagues, purely due to ability ... well, yes, there are of course those Chinese who climbed to the top simply by kissing the right asses at the right place, but such, is quite a universal phenomena :)

    I think we all agree that Chinese have the ability (or at least the potential) to get to the top, and get exceptionally high salary, but if Chinese continue to have prejudice against its own (yes, I was refering to the north versus south, or BJ versus Shanghai etc etc etc), and keep seeing foreigners as bigger and better (sorry guys, except Scott, but I believe in equality) ...

    Chinese is NOT better than the rest of the world, but for the same token, foreigners are not better than Chinese ... now ... stone me ...

  • №❶ Passioη

    hehe @DD it's hard to separate you from your humerous honesty.. but Why except Scott? :)

  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)

    。。。

    (continued) ... I was referring to his comment of "I can do what no native Chinese person can do" ...

  • №❶ Passioη

    hehe.. @ DD ... I see. I didn't know you were SAR. The new Social Welfare policy assumes you're a complete FFF (fucked-face / fuck-faced foreigner) like Scott and me... 

    (http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2011/06/14/china-clarifies-foreigner-participation-in-social-insurance-scheme.html)

    As chinese, what do you think about You and Scott in one additional taxation basket? :)

  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)

    。。。

    (continued) ... Bedtyger ... ditto ...

    №❶ Passioη ... I am sorry that I have never heard about such policy, but I will check it out later, and although you might not have meant it, your question does carry double meaning for me ... Chinese DNA or Chinese nationality ...

    As far as DNA is concerned, I see no relevance of it with tax ... unless you were trying to hint something? 

    I had stated many times before, I hold Australian nationality, although I am currently using my SAR status in China,  and as far as tax goes, I pay the same tax rate as foreigners (I have confirmation from my accountant), so I am afraid I dont understand what did you want to ask ...

  • №❶ Passioη

    hehe... I'm satisfied with the single answer you're SAR + Australian (and apparently proud to be)...pardon me with the FFF, it's a respectful term used to describe us (non-PRCese).. you can be excluded from the madness with pleasure :)

    @ ### - I blame the US and europe for selling the world to China.. "tertiary industry driven economy" my ass... They all got used by China's lure into investing their manufacturing in a country with "cheap labour", "stable polity", "transparency", "peace", "huge market" etc... Sino ass kissers, after being used and dumped, you still see their fuck faces on CCTV still echoing the madness: "China is our friend, we want to co-operate more with China, there is more to do". ignorance... the chinese are on the other side of the great wall laughing. Fock the west, Fock the east. Fock the world...

  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)

    ...

    (continued) ... I dont know how others might feel, nor do I speak for any Hong Kong folks other than myself, but back then, we were not recognised as Britsh (for an abvious reaosn, at best British overseas subject), nor were we considered part of China, as we were often addressed as "your Hong Kong people", so we were pretty much "orphans" ...

    The irony was that after 1997, we were suddenly addressed as "you are Chinese" or "you are part of China", so Joligne, Monique, "what changed"?

    * off to supermarket, back soon *

    [two hours later] ... on the other hand, DuDu told me before that I am not Chinese, so, can I perhaps get a direct and honest answer from the local folks?

  • Reply from Joligne is flagged as not relevant.

  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)

    ...

    (continued) ... hahahaha ... even if your data and fact are all correct, are you really hoping that the city government is going to do anything? This is China, right?

  • Joakim Lund Rangel

    Monique: "Over in Euorpe, any single immigrant who work without permit, will be thrown out of country immediately..."

    Not exactly, if you care to check out your statement first you would find that there is something between 6 to 9 million illigal immigrants in the EU, a number that is increasing with more than half a million every year.

    and in the US, there is 11.2 million illigal immigrants representing 5% of the workers.

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    Tighten immigration policy... are you kidding? Supply has difficulty meeting demand already. All countries have illegal immigration problems. All countries have shitty immigration laws. They're unnatural and detrimental to social development, which relies on free exchanges of not only goods and technology, but people. Is that so fucking hard to understand?

    So many fenqing complain that only foreign trash comes to China looking for cheap girls and easy jobs. Have they considered the possibility that only the wretched refuse of western countries can tolerate living in this harmonious society? Do you really want to make it harder for them to come to this godforsaken place?

    When Chinese people say ignorant shit about foreigners being trash, I laugh. You can call us shit, but by doing so you're going to emerge from the argument smelling far worse.

    Cultures thrive through cross-pollination. Now, do any of you shrill bitches wanna do some language exchange for the good of Chinese society? PM me. I'm available.

  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)

    ...

    (continued) ... heehee ... when did you become available? As Pussy and Snake said before, I have an imaginary daughter who might need to improve her English ...

    ... and speaking of those two, just going off topic for one second, I recall the famous Cantonese feast called "Dragon, Tiger and Pheonix", which is snake, cat and chicken, but they use civet instead of real cat ... heehee ...

    Sorry, do carry on ...

  • Dominik
    Dominik wrote:

    I agree with Dando.

  • Mengmeng
    Mengmeng wrote:

    "What is the point to pay the tax if there is no benifits for the foreigners"
    You share all the public facility with all Chinese, so you should pay certain amount of tax.

    "foreigners have to pay high tax"
    That's typical for cynical people or fenqing, they will say the same thing about any people making more money than themselves.

    " I have valued skills that zero Chinese people have."
    -----Shameless boasting skill.

    We acknowlege that China is far behind the developed countries in some aspects, that's why China offer high salaries to foreign experts, that's a fair play, you get money with your skill, not with arrogance. China is trying to make it's own commercial airplanes since 2009, and thanks for the help from French colaborators, we have achieved this at 2010.

     But I have seen quite a few so called foreign experts do nothing at work with high salaries, oh no, they work, they point fingers at our work, and they have full reward on patents, but their Chinese counterparts can only share the reward with tripled contribution.

    Prejudice, arrogance, ignorance are the sins of all disputes, wars. From philosophical point of view, it's not because some people have these sins, it's because they are lacking something. Hmm, maybe soul?

    "Every single commodity we buy from supermarket in China has 17% tax."
    Wow, that's a lot, I should buy things from street vendors from now on.

  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)

    ...

    (continued) ... and just before I head off to the kitchen ... what happened to between 6k and 12k?

    ... and, unless I have missed it, if those below 6k have valid and legal papers, why are they out?

    Have you crossed your fingers?

  • №❶ Passioη

    @ Monique - I'm also quite interested in the answer to uncle DD's question :)

    @DD - Don't mind them.. they are significant examples of

    @Scott - LOL... finally I catch someone crossing words off. that was childish "coner cutting" wasn't it? :D

    I do agree with Scott up there about China claiming innovation of others' technology... it doesn't hurt to admit they're not that good in everything but they think it's a shame to. What a culture. I give you more to fight with if you need. 1. ) The recent oil spill at BoHai bay blamed on ConocoPhillips which holds only 49% of the shares... the state owned SinoPec with the rest of the shares is not to blame for anything. Another Bullcrap in a nutshell  2. ) China's long march 3b latest rocket launch flew off course to the wrong orbit. This time, they couldn't blame anyone so they blamed it on "mechanical fault" and kept it silent... 3.) ETC...

    Ok, I'm here to settle you all. - The truth and nothing but the truth. It doesn't matter how you argue on who's better than who... There are macro factors that affect advancement standards in every country

    Yes, China has potentials but abilities and competence are harder to harvest in a non-competitive environment. In other words, a privatised economy often produces the best of industries. No, that will not happen in China. not in the next 50 years...However for now let's look at the truths that matter today: -

    China needs Dando Z to improve their English, 

    China needs Scott to teach them how Ignorance, lack of transparency, and Anti-LaoWaism is making an ass of the whole country.

    China needs Astaroth to straighten out local creeps like the fakers on this forum

    China needs BedTyger to teach their women the decency in contemporary lasciviousness

    China needs HighPriest to Balance the societal equation.

    China needs LaoLee to keep the roses red

    China needs me to teach them who we really are... though it's a long shot... I'll do what I can and leave the rest for DD :)

  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)

    ...

    (continued) ... №❶ Passioη ... which of the three questions?

    I have been getting less and less daring lately, because of someone I have known here ... anyway, what you said would be too much of a responsibility for an old man, and FYI, I am currently labelled "traitor of Chinese" and "liar" among many things, so I am not sure if I can teach anyone anything good ... other than how to be a very evil person ...

  • Mengmeng
    Mengmeng wrote:

    @Scott,

    "What are you going to do about it", I think a rational person will accept the fact and try to improve things rather than talking with a condescending tone. That attitude won't enlighten any fool.

    I appreciate that " thousands of other foreigners are really trying to help and build China" if they don't do that as more superior animals, and if they do it with the attitude to help Chinese, not China. There is an old Chinese saying "不吃嗟来之食", oh, sorry, you don't know any Chinese charater, right? OK, I'll do my humble favor for you, it means "Do not eat the food handed out in contempt".

    Fairness between foreigners and migrant workers isn't what I mean, don't twist my opinion, I meant: foreigners should get money equivalent to their skill and contribution. And BTW, problems related to migrant workers are more important than the tax issue of foreigners, foreign taxpayers are only a small percentitle after all.

    Of course, some important components are made in other countries, Chinese precision instrument industry is not competent to do all these things, but it's already a great improvement. I think small improvement is far more exciting than big leap, China can only be a real good place for people when it learns how to slow down.

    "Japanese bullet train = zero deaths since the 1960s." ever heard of Osaka train accident? And the train accident in China is not the fault of inferior tech, it's the problem of people.

    I am not good at debating, any one can correct me if I am wrong.

  • Mengmeng
    Mengmeng wrote:

    @

    №❶ Passioη

    Your additional seasons can really make good dinner if you don't mean to trigger stupid fight. That's the Chinese gov, they are afraid of losing face.

    I think we only need you to tell people who you really are, not "who we are", you can't represent anyone but yourself.

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    @Monique, Those magical figures you just pulled out of your ass certainly would be fair in a glorious Maoist fairytale utopia, but they don't reflect reality.

    As I said, I agree with your basic points because I find it annoying to hear foreigners whine about how their diamond-studded shoes are too tight, but the profoundly ignorant and prejudicial bullshit you keep posting is really undermine whatever points you're struggling to make.

    "I wrote a detailed proposals to officers in charge. They should get back to me in a week."

    Don't hold your breath.

    @Passion, I deeply resent that you just made me the WLIB equivalent of Aquaman. Fuck you so much.

    @Mengmeng, That should be "Don't bite the hand that feeds." Don't be cocky. I don't read Chinese characters, but I know a few idioms. Like 班门弄斧.

    In general, people aren't paid according to their "skill and contributions." Within individual fields workers compete with one another for positions according to those parameters, but when you start making comparisons between, say, agricultural and service sectors, it is more appropriate to say they are paid according to a market value. English teachers get paid more than they are "worth" because the demand for them is so much higher.

    Skill and social value are marginal factors, at best. Don't be naive. If you're going to be an idealist, get to the root of the problem: the bosses.

  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)

    ...

    (continued) ... excuse me for being slow, and old ...

    Monique ... you wrote: I am a local just returned from the Netherlands where food has 8% of tax but electronicals has 12.5% of tax. I am supurised how residences are heavily taxed here. Over in Euorpe, any single immigrant who work without permit, will be thrown out of country immediately... 

    I dont really know how goods tax is related to illegal immigrant, but, I did not study economics or similar ..

    However, I was just wondering ... Monique, when you said "local", you meant you are Chinese, right? Then, were you ever perhaps, at any stage, badly treated or disadvantaged when you were living in Netherlands? And now you are just paying back, or exacting your revenge? I am sorry if these guesses might have offended you, but, my mind works best in the dark side ...

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    @Sean, 3 month L visas aren't hard to get. 6 month F visas are a little expensive and require an invitation letter. And Americans can enter Mongolia without a visa. It was a hassle, but if you know the right agencies you only have to leave the mainland once every year.

    But the nice thing about working illegally is that you won't be kicked out of the country if you break a contract; English teachers really have more power over their employers this way.

  • №❶ Passioη

    @ DD -The little goldfish in my glass bowl doesn't bite... Don't mind what they say, you're the man for the job. Trust me ;

    @ Mengmeng - hehe, thanks for the compliments, I trype with my right hand up.. You can count on me not to be a troublemaker in the calibre of Dando Z,  Scott, Joligne, etc :D

    China upholds a general way of seeing other people (by nationality, race, and what not).. it's not my (our) fault that lately it got worse... "LaoWais are LaoWais and all the same"... so as far as the Chinese society is concerned, teaching about myself = teaching about everyone else.

    @ Dando Z - hehe, I'm flattered. that's the sweetest thing I've heard in 5 years :D BTW, who's aquaman? if he sounds like me, he must have been a superstar... I don't mind details ; 

    @ Sean

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    @Passion, Aquaman's superpower was the ability to talk to fish. Why he's in the Justice League with Green Lantern, Superman, and Batman is anyone's guess.

  • Daniel
    Daniel wrote:

    @MengMeng

    I think a rational person will accept the fact and try to improve things rather than talking with a condescending tone. That attitude won't enlighten any fool.

    here is an old Chinese saying "不吃嗟来之食", oh, sorry, you don't know any Chinese charater, right? OK, I'll do my humble favor for you, it means "Do not eat the food handed out in contempt".

    +1 Internets skillz. 

  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)

    ...

    (continued) ... №❶ Passioη ... it's not really what they "say" what worries me, but what they dont say ... by the way, you know that we are way way off topic, right?

  • Ejdnzlaj
    Ejdnzlaj wrote:

    Foreigners are given wages according to supply and demand, not value and skill. Tragic but true, because that's how all markets (including the job market) work.

  • Malin Aaker
    Malin Aaker wrote:

    Yeah so far nobody has the slightest fucking idea when, how and to whom the money should be paid. So the advice I've seen given by embassies to their country's companies is "save up the money somewhere for when you might have to pay".

    However since the law is already active this also means that foreigners could claim things based on the fact that they are entitled to social security and should be provided accordingly...

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