Discussion » Current Events » Beijing-Shanghai bullet train accident

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    <p>I'm just going to leave <a href="http://www.ministryoftofu.com/2011/07/makeshift-tiles-loose-boltsrushing-construction-as-communist-partys-birthday-gifts-could-cost-money-and-lives/">this</a> here.</p>
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    There are at least 43 people dead in Wenzhou, Zhejiang Province after a lightning-related power failure, and another malfunction prevented a second train from slowing before careening into the rear of the stalled train.

    But who cares? We've got dead rockstars, animal cruelty, Nordic gunmen, and French people to talk about.

  • G
    G wrote:

    man, this is not shanghai beijing bullet train...the collapsed train was slower than that one...

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    Are you fucking kidding me? If you can't read the fucking articles, at least look at the fucking pictures.

  • G
    G wrote:

    wtf...i mean the result will be much worse if the shanghai beijing bullet train collapse...

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    Who said anything about a collapse? Two trains collided. It happened on the Beijing-Shanghai high speed rail line, near Wenzhou. Look at the goddamned photos. Did every news agency in the world just photoshop CRH trains into the wreckage?

    Read before you comment.

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    Bump. Where the fuck is the moral outrage? Don't wait for me to editorialize, WLIB.

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    If you use public transportation on a daily basis, you have cause to be concerned.

    Completion of the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway line was rushed so that it's opening day to coincide with the 90th anniversary of the founding of the CPC. That is to say, 40+ people died and 200 were injured because the party had to receive its birthday gift on time.

    Subway construction follows a similar pattern in that construction companies are under tremendous pressure to time their grand openings with holidays and public events, possibly at the expense of safety.

    Do you feel safe?

  • V. Bilrost
    V. Bilrost wrote:

    The daily/weekly/monthly/yearly constellation very often tells me: you would probably be killed by traffic accident today/this week/this month/this year.

  • 外交猫
    外交猫 wrote:

    Western media didn't say it was part of the BJ-SH line, Dando just made that up. Wenzhou is 500 km south of Shanghai, so obviously this most recent accident has nothing to do with the 京沪高铁. I rode that train two weeks ago, and I assure you all it stops at Shanghai. However, the flaws that have been exposed in the BJ-SH line in the past few weeks obviously have the same provenance as the horror that we're seeing near Wenzhou.

    A socio-political-economic system that is so blindingly corrupt to its core as to be fucked up beyond all possiblity of repair in its current form. A total disregard for the importance of human life, dignity, and safety when compared with the importance of politics and profits and face. A lack of transparency, accountability, and morality at all levels of government. A dictatorial political party that doesn't give a fuck about regular people and only cares about its own power and glory.  Etc. etc.

    What's saddest is that no Chinese people are ever genuinely surprised when accidents like this happen.  Everyone knows the system is fucked up beyond belief, but no one is willing to do anything about it.

  • G
    G wrote:

    外交猫, seems you are pretty familiar with China...Yes, Wenzhou is in Zhejiang province. The accident happened at 500km south of Shanghai...

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    Derp. Geography fail. That fuck-up wasn't the western sources. I had assumed it was part of the same line because I didn't realize that they were using the same high-speed CRH trains on the older railways.

    My bad. Sorry, Mr G.

    Still, with the way the gubbermint touted the advanced technology of these CRH trains, it's an even bigger embarrassment during the Party's 90th Birthday than Comrade Jiang's health problems. The Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway has already experienced three power outages which have stalled travelers on the elevated track for several hours, according to the Guardian.

    The trains are automated because at those speeds the conductors can't possibly react in time based on visual cues. Something went wrong with the automated system which prevented the second train's brakes from engaging in response to the first train stalling.

    Which makes me think this is less a problem with these older models of high-speed trains and more of an issue with the automation system.

  • G
    G wrote:

    no worries buddy...

    it's just a discussion...however, we can extend this discussion to relevant topics...you see the issue with the atuomation system, i see the issue with the social system of china...

     

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    Japan's bullet train system hasn't produced a single fatality since it opened in 1964.

    Their maximum speed is set at between 200-275 kilometers per hour to ensure safety. China, however, started commercial operations at a maximum 350 kph on some routes.

    After learning this, Kawasaki Heavy said it had secured a written pledge from China that the Japanese company "would not be held responsible" if an accident was caused by speeding.

     I guess that precludes blaming it on the foreigners, as CD did when that escalator collapsed.

    @Mr G, For sure, but I wouldn't parse it quite like that. Technology is just scientific theory applied to daily life, so when society is fucked up, so to is technology. We could have cured cancer and AIDS already if the pharmaceutical companies weren't so committed to the idea that treatments produce more long-term revenue than cures.

    We could be filling our cars with biofuels. We have the scientific knowledge to turn used cooking oil into diesel fuel. It's not exactly new. We just don't because implementing the technology is too costly, even if it's better for the long-term than petroleum.

    High-speed trains aren't cutting-edge technology, but the ZF touted it as such. But implementing a high-speed railway line should never have been promoted as a breakthrough technological achievement. It's a social one. For fuck's sake, we should have had a transcontinental high-speed railway in the USA fifty fucking years ago, but it just wasn't considered profitable enough.

  • 外交猫
    外交猫 wrote:

    They're already rocking the "blame the foreigners" strategy. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs spokeswoman and the Railways Ministry press conference have all involved lots of not-so-subtle references to the fact that these trains are joint ventures with the Japanese.  Yes, that's right, a Japanese company, which is most like staffed by Japanese people. Japan Japan Japan Japan (don't think about the train, instead think about...) Japan Japan Japan Japan...

    Clearly, that explains everything.  The part of the train that crashed is the Japanese part, and the parts that are still shining are the Chinese parts.

    By the way, just a couple weeks ago these same ministries were screaming to the foreign media about how China's high-speed train technology should be considered entirely indigenous (and thus patentable in the US) and that foreign design elements from places like, say, Japan, play no significant role in the systems. So two weeks ago these trains were 100% Chinese.  Now we're supposed to believe they dropped from the sky straight from Tokyo.

  • G
    G wrote:

    agree with you man...

    in china, all these rediculous things result from politics...

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    Mihou, People were still being rescued from other cars even after they started crushing and burying them.

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    Shit. I forgot a link to that article about the Japanese high-speed rail system in my last big post with the pulled quotes. Here it is.

    Innovation isn't really relevant to the discussion, @Pete. We're not talking about maglevs. We're talking about technology that is half a century old. The problem isn't the copying itself. Copying technology is a Very Good Thing, especially if you follow the free/open-source software movement. A lot of geeks put a higher priority on the ability to freely exchange information than to offer further incentives for innovation.

    Rather, it's the cost-cutting measures and shortcuts taken with the planning, designs, manufacturing, and construction. The problem is they aren't totally faithful to the technology which they're copying. It's not exact. If it were...

    A JR official said Japanese shinkansen systems have been equipped with automatic train control since they were inaugurated in 1964 because of the understanding that it is difficult for the driver to rely on visual confirmation in applying the brake on a high-speed service.

    The ATC automatically stops a train when it is detected to be running ahead. If the system fails or power is lost, the brake is designed to be applied automatically.

    Japanese shinkansen trains are designed on the concept that they should be stopped whenever an anomaly is detected, the JR official said. Since their launch, no collisions have been caused, according to the official.

    This ain't rocket science. We're not talking about nuclear secrets here. They're crushing and burying those CRH cars at the scene to eliminate the evidence of how inexactly they copied the Japanese and Canadian technology.

  • 外交猫
    外交猫 wrote:

    Thank god China is still buying its airplanes from Boeing and Airbus.  As soon as they crank up their domestic airline manufacturing industry, and the government starts forcing the airlines to "buy Chinese", it's going to be a shitstorm of death and destruction.  Will Chinese people even be willing to fly on Chinese made planes?

  • Simen Wangberg

    "Everyone knows the system is fucked up beyond belief, but no one is willing to do anything about it."

    Just gonna take issue with one little thing - boy, do the Chinese wish they could do something about it. There is a huge contingent of Chinese that are educated, world-aware and pissed off about this stuff, and a lot of them are online.

    There are a pile of Chinese people on Sina Weibo, discussing this stuff. They know it's happening, they don't like it...but they also realize that they don't have any power to do anything about it.

    悲剧了

  • 外交猫
    外交猫 wrote:

    "What else can they do?"

    If I answered that question, WLIB would get shut down.  ;)

  • Zoe Zhong
    Zoe Zhong wrote:

    Seriously, can anyone answer me what can we do?

    Basically I just feel like our rights to do sth got taken away from all the old  dickheads in that PARTY, who only care about their 仕途 and money.

    We are mad about all the *ucking high speed shit already. But what makes us upset is how the railway ministry has done after this accident. They were trying to bury people , CHINESE PEOPLE in less than 24 hours. And after their give-up saving people statement, they found a girl who is still alive, ALIVE. what a miracle.

    honestly, i've never felt this hopeless before. BUT, what can I do?

  • Zoe Zhong
  • Zoe Zhong
    Zoe Zhong wrote:

    @Scott

     Most of the comments in this thread were posted by NON-CHINESE, I think?

    I don't really give a shit if they delete my comments or sth. People join me on my rage post on the internet, and then wat? I dont really know.

     

     

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    So you scream. You scream as loudly as you can while still being coherent. And if even if your scream initially seems to fall on deaf ears, hope that the echo escapes the spiral of silence before they can put the muzzle on you.

    It's not just your only option. It's your existential duty as an intelligent person. You didn't get wise independently. You got that way with the help of society, and you owe it to society to return the favor by indulging in The Truth even when it will provoke derision.

    And that's why I'm rather proud of the factual fuckuppery and yellow journalism I'd previously engaged in by prematurely concluding that since it was a CRH train that it must have happened on the BJ-SH line. Fuck it. The occasional embarrassment is a small price to pay for fulfilling my existential responsibility of pissing people off enough to jostle them out of their apathy.

    Chinese people are righteously pissed off, but they're afraid to comment in front of a foreign audience, because this is such an unprecedented national embarrassment that it's difficult to respond with the usual "But the U.S is just as bad because...", "But Japan is even worse because..."

    My father told me: "If you can't learn something from the dumbest person in the room, then you are the dumbest person in the room." My father is a dumbass, but I learned quite a bit from him because he wasn't afraid to share the most embarrassing stories of his misspent youth. I'm a dipshit for not knowing where the fuck Wenzhou is. Whatever. Here's what you might learn from the dumbest guy in the room: spectacular fuck-ups are no less spectacular. They can be used to your advantage.

  • 滴/Amber
    滴/Amber wrote:

    people from the top of pyramids are all the same.greedy and dark.

    they use the monetary system to control and rape the world.

    so.what i need to know is.

    except screaming and destroying.

    what else we can do.

    i hope there will be a brand new world.

    but how.

  • Zoe Zhong
    Zoe Zhong wrote:

    Thx, man. That's very inspiring.

     

  • 滴/Amber
    滴/Amber wrote:

    but i do know why Chinese people don't want "foreign influence".

    oh god i need to speak Chinese now.

     

    很多第三世界国家的政变起因恰恰是由于"foreign influence".

    美国是核心。

    美国通过货币体系以及各种手段渗透第三世界国家的各个命脉。

    这是无时无刻不在发生的事实。

     

    however.we do need to learn from foreiners.

    learn how to love and respect.

  • 滴/Amber
    滴/Amber wrote:

    and Dando.thank you for ur post here.

  • Zoe Zhong
    Zoe Zhong wrote:

    好,说中文我能更好地表达些。

    中国在723高铁追尾事件表现出来的是完全是面子。在整个高铁的修建当中,所谓的foreign influence就一直存在:我们的技术85%是从国外买来的;高铁修建投入的大部分钱也流入了外企和某些国内上市企业的口袋。

    这些都不是影响吗? 中国就是个神奇的国度,天天都在上演奇迹。

    @Dando

    I guess what we are supposed to know from this accident is that what exact problems do these high speed train have and how to solve them. Or u can say what should government do to keep us safe.( no matter department of the government, i dont care, just someone who should be responsible). BUT, what we have learned from this accident is NEVER EVER trust the bullshit from government. well, i guess it is the same everywhere?

  • 滴/Amber
    滴/Amber wrote:

    @Zoe 没错,我们不想要,不代表没有。

    但其实国内和国外在本质上都是一样的。

    民众始终是金字塔顶端阶层的奴隶。

    贪婪和欲望让他们早已与普通民众甚至国家的命运脱轨,尤其是中国。

  • 滴/Amber
    滴/Amber wrote:

    @Sth yeah going insane..so what should we do after destroying the old systerm.

  • Simen Wangberg

    "When this old system gonna be over?"

    Not until all the old people who are currently in charge die and people from your generation replace them. Gonna have to wait a little while for that one.

  • 滴/Amber
    滴/Amber wrote:

    the question about"when" is not so important.

    if we don‘t know how to biuld.

    destroying will be nothing but repeat of history.

  • 滴/Amber
    滴/Amber wrote:

    meaningless.

    the reason why we are here is not because of our planet.

    it's ourselves.

    if we don‘t solve the old problems,no matter where we go,it will be the same old place.

  • 滴/Amber
    滴/Amber wrote:

    there are still lot's of beatiful qualities in the human nature.

    not only greedy.

    don't forget.

  • 滴/Amber
    滴/Amber wrote:

    yes.u r absolutely right!!!

  • G
    G wrote:

    young man, it's time to destroy the system...

  • 滴/Amber
    滴/Amber wrote:

    we accept help when it's kind.

    but we don't need the so-called "influence".

    after all.it's a wild world.

    we need to think independently.

  • 外交猫
    外交猫 wrote:

    Nothing will change in this country as long as Chinese people are brave dragons on the internet but timid sheep on the streets.  You can't fix problems by venting on Weibo.  You have to be willing to do something real.  You have to be willing to take risks, you have to be willing to sacrifice for your country.  I don't think Chinese people are brave enough yet, or willing to sacrifice anything yet.  They love their wallets more than they love their country.  It's easy to sit in your room and bitch online, but what is that really?  It's nothing.

    Ask the Egyptians.  They know how this shit is done for real.  You want to know "what can we do?"  Look at Egypt.  That takes major balls though.  Major balls.

  • Undermoonlight

    Just gonna take issue with one little thing - boy, do the Chinese wish they could do something about it. There is a huge contingent of Chinese that are educated, world-aware and pissed off about this stuff, and a lot of them are online.

    There are a pile of Chinese people on Sina Weibo, discussing this stuff. They know it's happening, they don't like it...but they also realize that they don't have any power to do anything about it.

    悲剧了

    ----given time~it will be gradually improved----apparently cannot be changed overnight...China don't need revolution any more and will not act like stupid Russians (the former Soviot Union)~

  • Undermoonlight

    However, keeping pressure on the government is a good way~Abd I think our situation is better than Egiptians'~

  • 滴/Amber
    滴/Amber wrote:

     

    Egyptians?

    haha u do make me laugh.

    so all of ur guys think u know

    what is China

    and even what is FREE enough?

     

    no mean to offend.

    but ur arrogance do make me laugh.

  • Undermoonlight

    We need peaceful improvements, not violent revolutions~~the passion of our young people should not be taken advantage by politicians~That's all I want to say--as for the ultimate choice, of course, it's up to you~This is also what i speak to my students in class from time to time~~Let's See how long your naive laughter can last~~ 

  • Mengmeng
    Mengmeng wrote:

    This is a tragedy caused by dereliction of duty, not the mechanical  failure.

    Wailing over the moral-collapsed people in power and waiting the new ones to take power is useless, they have to be as rotten as the old ones to achieve that power if they don't have strong will to preserve their conscience.

    So what you can do? Yes, you can do many things. Nevertheless I won't write the following words with YOU, but I. Because many people say you should blarblar, foreigners or Chinese, they don't do anything themselves, they complain about the rotten world, but after that they go to play video games or go to the mall to check out New arrived clothes; they howl on the internet then claim 还是洗洗睡吧(I'd better take a shower and go to sleep.)

    I want to change the world
    But I have to change myself first

    To be stronger and braver and inner-directed
    Nothing stupid should make me self-abandoned

    I have no ability to help others getting their right
    But I can do my work with heart

    I don't trust the charity organization
    I can go out to make some contribution

    I shouldn't preach others with plain words
    For I know it's as light as clouds.


    ACTION SPEAKS LOUDER.

  • 滴/Amber
    滴/Amber wrote:

    @Undermoonlight 

    u misunderstood me.

    i support destroying the old systerm.

    but i need to know how to avoid the repeat of history again and again!!

    got it?!

     

    why i laugh?

    请你睁大眼看看如今是哪些国家在支持埃及的反对派。

    他们会无偿支持么?

    单边主义大行其道,被玩了还帮人数钱!

     

    ah.what a waste of my time here.

    goodbye mr smartasses.

  • Undermoonlight

    Another irritating, fashion-chasing (but uneducated, even can't make her staement clear--either in Chinese or in English) piece of work--typical among the college students in Chnese universities--and She asked me "got it?"----That's the manner they treat their professors----yes, i've seen a lot~~no surprise~

  • 滴/Amber
    滴/Amber wrote:

    wow.so u really think u've already got it.right?sir~

     

    thank u for ur comment,anyway.

    that makes me know what i really need to do.

     

  • Simen Wangberg

    "If millions of Chinese people used the Human Flesh Search engine to find the truth about scandals, and the truth about their rich fat leaders, and sent this information abroad -- to places like The New York Times -- then those rich fat leaders would be humiliated. They would finally have someone telling them that it's about time to be honest and truthful and law-abiding."

    It would be nice if it was that easy. Western media have taken Chinese government officials to task numerous times - bad publicity is still publicity, and the Chinese government doesn't seem to care about its appearance in the international press.

    This hasn't changed with time - remember all the shit that went down after Liu Xiaobo and the Nobel Prize? They looked like total fools in front of everyone, but they didn't seem to care. Not to mention this year's "revolution" that just wasn't.

    Right, let's talk about that one for a hot minute. A handful of young, educated Chinese (living and working in countries other than China, according to apocryphal reports) posted messages on Twitter calling for people to "take a walk" in Wangfujing and other major pedestrian areas in other large Chinese cities.

    Foreign media showed up. One of them even got his leg busted by a plainclothes Chinese cop for his trouble. Oh yeah, about the cops - they showed up en masse too.

    Who didn't show up? Any actual protestors, that's who. Why? Because the last time a bunch of people in China showed up in person in a large public area to speak out against the government...well, I think we all know what happened.

    "You have to be willing to take risks, you have to be willing to sacrifice for your country.  I don't think Chinese people are brave enough yet, or willing to sacrifice anything yet.  They love their wallets more than they love their country."

    It isn't about their wallets, Ethan. It's about their lives. It's easy to be brave on the Internet, you're absolutely right - but that goes both ways. It's easy for you to say that Chinese people don't have balls, or that they don't love their country...but many of them have and do. Surely you know some young, pissed-off Chinese folks yourself - what do they have to say about it?

    I just don't see anything good coming of the Chinese trying to physically confront their government/protest about this. Definitely not in the same fashion that the Egyptians used. Hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of people...all detained, arrested, beaten. It would just be T-Square all over again.

    Or maybe that's what has to happen for any kind of real change to occur here. But I just don't think that the vast majority of Chinese people who happen to be knowledgeable about this kinda stuff are ready to disappear into the government's black bag. It's just too much to put on the line.

    Hell, maybe you're right - maybe they don't have balls, I don't know. But they are certainly not ready for a Middle Eastern Spring-style event here. The Chinese government, for all its failures and ineptitude, is pretty damn good at maintaining order, even if it has to do so in a blatantly fucked-up way. I'm not saying that's right, I'm saying it's not something to take lightly.

  • Zoe Zhong
    Zoe Zhong wrote:

    holy *uck!!!!!

    could not post anything here now. just wrote some comment which got deleted....

    all the bars and any place provide wifi service are required by government to install some cencorship&spy software soon. I guess it's starting to work now.

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    Physical violence solves nothing. I would suggest property violence, to hit the Powers That Be where they'll really feel it (their wallets), but it would be difficult for observers to distinguish such civilized terrorism from the more casual everyday expressions of disrespect for public spaces, like littering and letting toddlers piss and shit everywhere.

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    Eh, but this wasn't really an anniversary gift, since they were 1st generation trains on an older conventional track. That was my bad for framing the disaster so sensationally.

    Still, on the BJ-TJ route, they sell scale models of CRH trains, with cute attendants holding them up in glass cases mid-journey. They were touted as cutting-edge technology, and the fact that this happened on an inferior conventional track at lower speeds would suggest that perhaps the rest of China just isn't ready for giant 300 km/hr alabaster dildos tearing through the orifices of every major city in east China. At least not until they get their poop in a scoop.

  • 滴/Amber
    滴/Amber wrote:

    the number 35 is none business with FACE.

    it's closely related to the govnmental officials' positions who are at or above provincial level .

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    @Amber, Describe that relationship, please.

  • 滴/Amber
    滴/Amber wrote:

    sorry i made a mistake.not" at or above provincial level "

    i heard that if the dead bodys are more than 36 in an accident,

    the secretary of a municipal committee of the CPC(is that the correct english phrase?) will be removed.

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    That's correct English.

    But it sounds like a completely fucked up policy. This isn't a municipal-level fuck-up. It's not really even a provincial-level fuck-up. Why would the secretary of the Wenzhou municipal committee be punished for neglect that is so obviously the responsibility of the railway ministry?

  • 滴/Amber
    滴/Amber wrote:

    it sounds weird.

    but really normal in China.

    i don't exactly understand their work systems.

    but i know the railway ministry is not the only one who need to be responsible for this.

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    They'll ask the entirety of the national media to mis-report the death toll statistics just to protect a low-level bureaucrat from losing their job?

    Chinese people are so protective of their own.

  • G
    G wrote:

    read books about Chinese histroy and you'll understand...

    it's all about politics and the social system...if the system remains unchanged, anything will not be changed... 

  • Simen Wangberg

    "They'll ask the entirety of the national media to mis-report the death toll statistics just to protect a low-level bureaucrat from losing their job?"

    I'm not totally sure if that's accurate, but apparently some state media have received a number of "recommendations" from the authorities in regards to covering the accident.

    It's on ChinaSmack: http://www.chinasmack.com/2011/stories/chinese-reactions-to-governments-handling-of-wenzhou-train-accident.html

  • V. Bilrost
    V. Bilrost wrote:

    @ Dando:

    That's why we need foreign media, unforunately, thus our g*****t could blame foreign media for eveything.

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    @Star, It works for Sarah Palin and the rest of the Tea Party set.

    @Scott, I wouldn't be surprised, but I think I'll believe it when I see it. Some sick fuck in the sino-blogosphere had to have saved it. I'll keep an eye peeled.

  • 滴/Amber
    滴/Amber wrote:

    CRH

     

     

    @Dando it's not all about a protection of "sb. own".the political and socail systerm are extremly complicated in China.more than u can guess.try to imagine a huge spider web. a slight move in one part may affect the whole situation.kind of butterfly effect.

    @Sccot it wasn't a body but a piece of machine.but...who knows..everything could happen there.

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    @Amber,

    I was being sarcastic. And I can't say much more, but I can imagine how complex the Chinese political system is. In a comparative political science course back in university, I saw the flowchart with all the ministries and departments and committees and who answers to whom in China. It is, to put it mildly, a total goddamned clusterfuck.

    de
  • 滴/Amber
    滴/Amber wrote:

    don't worry babe.

    change or die.

    we will see.

  • 滴/Amber
    滴/Amber wrote:

    u would know more details if u had a weibo.

    all of us have been shocked.

    thanks for caring,anyway.

  • Kodi
    Kodi wrote:

    Bad governance and poor decision making is not anyone's culture....

    Good at stimulating the economy thus far, but just really bad at admitting faults even when its obvious. Maybe its a penis insecurity thing.  

    Almost as bad at people skills as American diplomats.

    Too bad some sucker has to take the fall for the real responsible party member.  This is always the case..... Of course we cannot let the rich and powerful official pay for his mistakes, or admit wrongdoing of any kind.  Thats just not possible.  No way can they investigate the accident and reveal any blatant mistake on their parts......   This is not because of culture.  This is tyrany.

  • Kodi
    Kodi wrote:

    Oh yeah maybe I should throw in that I do not support stupidity from any side of any border.  Mistakes are made by all governments and they are all high profile events.  I do not see why this should be any different.  Criticism should be given where critisicm is due, no exceptions. I do not give a fuck if you are a party member or a president or whatever heavenly mandate you think you have. 

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