There are... other... options, y'know.
Abortion seems inhumane, but it's over a lot more quickly than a childhood of being reared by emotionally stunted kidults or bouncing from one fundamentalist Christian foster home to another.
Chinese orphans should be so lucky, Keith. There's actually a taboo about taking care of a stranger's children in this country. Children of convicted criminals are even more unfortunate, as the police legally can do nothing except leave them to fend for themselves.
………………something can not control my ourself. maybe good maybe bad.so much complexity………………
Nice ad hominem attack, I do believe you just won the debate Keith
@Keith, What is a taboo other than rumor and hearsay?
"why don't you adopt a few"
BECAUSE IT IS ILLEGAL.
There's an NGO called "Morning Tears" that deals with this problem, but like most NGOs they're always running into problems with the Chinese government. Official statistics regarding orphans and child trafficking are hard to come by.
Keep in mind that turning orphans into feral children or fodder for human trafficking is not an actual PRC policy, but evidence of a lack of policy which really shouldn't be so surprising in a developing country with pressing security and economic concerns.
So, I'm gonna be lazy and shift the burden of proof: tell me everything you know about social welfare programs on the Chinese mainland. You don't have to be concise.
Edit: Nice ad hominem. Go fuck yourself with a rake.
WLIB DEBATE MODE... STATUS: ENGAGED
Keith - you inbred scum-sucking mouth-breathing, fuck jar - I do verily conceive that evidence from recent times were disseminated at a previous point in time within this very thread. I kindly beeseech you to glance thine eyes of denial and pestilence upon
Note, in partricular, the dates of the case studies. You will find that most of those cited were published between 2004 and 2007, you absolute cunt.
Thor, what are you doing back? I thought you gave up on us. We missed you, man.
haha...forum psycho peak time is coming...Keith, welcome to join our bedlam! more sarcastic comments loading now.......
Simply mail more than 3 grams of any hard drug of your choosing to my home, and you can join the club.
lol, mark, i like ur point
Wow, I cant keep it up.
Keith, I know quite a few Christian foster home here in china. but no, im not supportive of abandoning your own child, or abortion, or being a single mom..gosh, so yeah, I have to make sure that doesn’t happen on me!
Dando and Scott, are we a bit too far from the question? Or abandoning a child seems to be the best choice among abortion, getting married, being a single mom/dad? Why don’t you let us know what u think is the right thing for the guy to do when that happens?
Moonriver, believe, there are quite some young girls who have no clue whats going on and just go with flow. That’s why there are ‘accidents’.
Kulo: I have talked to one or two single moms. Life’s definitely not easy on them. But they are Europeans and their society has even more supportive culture and social system thanChina.
Godfather: isn’t my age on my profile?! No, that girl isn’t my friend. That guy is! But I can tell he’s very happy about this. Somehow, it gives me this feeling that this accident secured him a wife!
Eastwood, Oh my god, are you serious! How old is your friend?! Why still a second one?!
Mark: I value your answer :)
I think it's infintiely more inhumane to raise a child in an enviroment it is not welcomed into, or even resented in, than it is to stop it from ever having the chance self-aware in the first place.
Keith, here's a radical idea. Come round to my house and jerk me off. Here's my number:
A glowing, first class masters in Philosophy from a top 10 university actually.
p.s. eat a bag of dicks
Sending a child to an orphanage or foster home is closer to "abandonment" than abortion can ever hope to be, especially in countries where social welfare and child protection services are undeveloped.
If the guy isn't ready to be a father, he cannot force himself to become ready; the best he can do is be honest with his partner about his means. If the woman feels she is ready to be a mother, and she is financially independent, then she could be a single mother.
When you control single motherhood and child happiness statistics for other variables such as the mother's income, you find that the comparative unhappiness is due to socioeconomic issues, not the lack of a father figure. Step-fathers and grandfathers and uncles and older brothers can be just as effective role models as biological fathers.
Personally, if I accidentally caused a girl to become pregnant by neglecting to wear a condom, I would suggest she get an abortion, because my vagrant lifestyle cannot accommodate a wife let alone a child. I'd cover the medical bills and I'd try my best to be emotionally supportive before and after the procedure, even if she would be so disgusted by my "irresponsibility" that she cannot tolerate me anymore as a lover.
Unfortunately, a lot of men abandon women if they learn of an abortion, as if she becomes "unclean" during the process. This is wrong; how would we feel if a man left his wife after a miscarriage? Abortion is morally equivalent to a miscarriage: in one, biology forces the termination of the pregnancy; in the other, a persons social and economic situation forces the termination of the pregnancy.
Dreadful as abortion is, these men who look at women as ambulatory baby factories with no value to society besides reproductive capacity are far, far worse.
Yeah, of course you can call! I mean, you can call it because it's fake so I don't care.
can... I call it?
You------ girl or boy, should have considered of this on the day you started to have sex life!
I don't like abortion,but in this case I might be recommend her to abort the unexpected baby for her own good as this country hasn't outlawed the abortion.
Not just for her sake, but for the sake of a potential human being; let's not conflate lifeforms possessing human DNA with humanity itself. Miscarriages and abortions are certainly unfortunate, but they're not morally equivalent to the death of a human being.
Nor has it ever been this way, even according to traditional religious laws; for example, the Catholic Church used to reckon the beginning of human life at the time of "quickening," when the physical movements of the fetus are first felt by the mother-to-be.
" but they're not morally equivalent to the death of a human being."
It certainly not , what r u talking about?
@Eva, I'm anticipating objections from pious poseurs like 马克 and the Hate Priest.
ok, I am very curious what Bible saids about abortions.
@Eva, Nothing directly, because before modern medicine there was no concept of conception as we think of it now; few people during that time knew that the sperm fertilized the egg. Modern religious objections to abortion are very fucking modern, but less religious than political.
This is about as close as it gets:
And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, (NAS, Exodus 21:22-24)
It is excruciatingly clear from this passage that the life of a fetus is not morally equivalent to the life of a person.
what does it matter anyway since it has not written by God but by human beings? if religion considered abortion as a sin, what about miscarriage of fetus,the curse of God?
What's important to realize is that according to this part of the Mosaic legal code, "killing" a fetus was less a crime against humanity than a crime against human property. Only injury to the mother-to-be would be punished according to the "eye for an eye" guideline of Hammurabi.
Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. -- Hosea 9:16
Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. -- Hosea 13:16
Ergo, God is the world's most successful abortionist. I'll remember that next time I see people holding "baby killer" signs outside Planned Parenthood.
You are another exercise in the promotion of my fuck-face. Thank you very much!
yes,yes,You are the hero,man~
Keith hears voices.
@Keith, ur impotent penis looks obviously awkward...u have issues...
once a baby has started groing inside its mum's belly,its already alive and that makes it a human being.abortion is a crime be it china recorgnises that or not.
think of it for a moment. u would be quick to defend ur blood saying u would do anything for ur family or go through any length to keep ur family safe but once u abort a ur own kid all that talk becomes trash cos u killed ur own kid.
what kind of person kills their own kid?
prevention is better than cure.
if u wanna fuck then use a condom.china has that here in abundance but if u say it aint sweet with the condom on and wanna go for skin to skin as alot of us would prefer then guys dont pour inside ur gf.
u are a man so be strong enough to resist the sweet pleasure of releasing ur load inside her which would save u the trouble of having to wait n see if u gonna be a dad anytime soon.
no abortion. if he was stupid enough to get her pregnant then he should be man enough to do what is right for her and his unborn kid.
abortion is murder.what makes it even worse is that people are killing their own flesh and blood.
this world is sick.
"what kind of person kills their own kid?"
the situation are varies, what if a girl being raped by a stranger and got a hellish breed?
"prevention is better than cure."
"this world is sick."
no, the people.
raped or not raped the kid is still ur flesh and blood .
cos u were raped by a monster doesnt mean the kid will or has to be a monster.
if u showed love and trained a devil properly from a baby he will grow up to be an angel.
so that is no excuse.
people make up the world. the world is sick means people are sick.
I will keep my baby if I accidentially pregnant with my bf now..
But, by talk about younger age girls? You girls please never try luck... use protection...
To paraphrase one of my favorite contemporary philosophers:
You're not a human until you're in the fuckin' phone book.
"once a baby has started groing inside its mum's belly"
I stopped reading here. Babies start growing outside their moms' vaginas.
Equivocating abortion with murder is heavy-handed even by American standards, Aino, and I'm from a part of the country that is considerably more conservative than Massachusetts.
With the possible exception of yours truly, nobody is really pro-abortion; it's more correct to say pro-choice, since these folks advocate keeping the decision a private one between a woman and a doctor. Planned Parenthood, reputedly the #1 provider of abortions in the US and a lightning rod for the criticism from religious fanatics, only counts abortion services as less than 10% of its clients requests. The rest of what they do is stuff like distributing condoms, offering STD tests/treatments, distributing affordable birth control, etc., so one can say that pro-choice groups prevent more abortions every year than so called "family values" anti-choice groups and sweatpants-wearing home-schooled Kool Aid mustachioed Wal*Martian troglodytes like Keith and his kin.
Hahahahaha ... guess I am cutting in ... anyone care to dance?
Fish ... as much as you are correct, there are cases when the "mother" cannot (or rather, should not be allowed to) make that decision, and then the responsibility falls onto those who could ... I was tempted to say that those cases are rare, and then I remember I am ancient ... I was actually referring to teenage pregnancy ...
And about abortion ...
... one reason (or purpose) of ultrasound is to determine the health of “baby”, and if it is unhealthy or deformed, then the moral question is whether to end the suffering before it begins, or bring the baby onto this crude crude world ... most people, even if those against abortion, would opt for "end it now" ...
... in terms of China's law ... the hukou issue is plain stupid and prejudicial, but it is there, and hence people has to work around the system ... I once "met" a single mother who asked us to "adopt" her child so that he could then get better legal status (as a foreigner), and hence perhaps better future ... I never asked about the father, and my best guess is that they were not married and that he had left ... anyway, if she had known how it would end up, it seems likely that she would have chosen prevention or perhaps abortion ...
... and by the way, I dont think Keith is American ... heehee ...
Doctor-patient confidentiality trumps the misguided good intentions of parental consent laws; they're often abused in conservative states to create an unnecessary bureaucratic hurdle for doctors and patients, which is completely undesirable since in almost all cases, terminating pregnancies as early as possible is most beneficial for the health of the mother.
The shame & blame of religious fanatics notwithstanding, abortion is always less physiologically stressful than childbirth. It should not be the right of the parents to force a minor female to give birth against her will. That is child abuse.
And what about in cases of incest? This alone is reason enough to abolish all parental consent laws.
Abortion should be a decision solely between a woman (even a girl) and a doctor.
"her decision to have or not have the baby is going to affect every single person in the family and the family should probably decide together."
If the parents are never informed in the first place, how exactly is the decision to abort a pregnancy going to affect the rest of the family? Where are you getting the idea that the vagina of a minor is the property of her parents until age 18?
Fish ... the actual age boundary varies according to countries, cultures etc ... if I remember correctly, girls as young as 15 can get married in India, right? I just used "teenage pregnancy" in a general sense, to group together those who might not otherwise have the maturity to make the decision ... but of course, there are always exceptions and special circumstances ... and earlier, I had intentionally skipped to mention cases where the "mothers" have mental issues, only because I did not know the PC term for that ... obviously, such minority would be considered not fit to be mother, and also making such decision ... agreed?
Perhaps due to my Chinese blood mixed with Australian culture, I believe that even if the "mother" is "fit" to make the decision, whether to abort or to keep the baby, she should at least mention this to (not necessarily discuss with) family and/or friends ... yes, they should not make the decision, and they should not even "judge" or "offer advice", but I dont see how it is possible for any "mother" to do this:
... hey mom, hey dad, guess what I have been doing in the last 10 months? I made a baby ...
... at the end, it falls into (or touches) the area of family communication ...?
Of course she should, as that's the righteous and honest thing to do, but I think laws to compel it are incredibly misguided. We have too many Bible-thumping dipshits in America who would beat their daughters if they found out they were sexually active, let alone pregnant.
(continued) ... only in America? We have (at least) one more right here on this forum ...
(continued) ... I tawt I taw a putty tat ... for a minute, I thought I saw Priest said something ... it's turning into a nightmare ...
The Hate Priest is a pathologically deceptive charlatan who feigns piety to cover up for his indiscretions. In fact, I thought there was something humorously subversive about this degenerate masquerading as a clergyman until he started expressing homophobic opinions.
Maybe the appearance of self-deception makes him seem sincere, but in truth he doesn't actually behave like an earnestly pious person at all. It's just a smokescreen for the illicit activities going on in his "church".
Fortunately, hardcore fundamentalist Xtianists rarely leave their insular communities except for missionary work. Thankfully, the government keeps a lid on that shit here, but that's changing as people realize that Christian "family values" are very compatible with Chinese notions of filial piety.
(continued) ... one thing I found odd ... was when "Robert" kept pushing the Priest to tell us about his church and the service timetable, the Priest has chickened out ... and even till now, he has not mentioned which church he belongs to ... however, I remember a few times when some people, such as sun-tanning Yuki, actually came out to praise the Priest's church service ... what service?
GodFather joked that it was an orgy with a liturgy based on the kamasutra.
(continued) ... so GF has been there? and the Priest actually includes sex in his service? How delightful ...
last month ive heared a shocked story from my friend..she was pregant..nd his bf left her without even say goodbye..she begged him...but he didnt answer..until she threated him..he sent some money..they ve been together a year..what a f....jerk...has no heart..
"I don't agree with parental consent laws either, but you can't just strip them away randomly"
There's nothing random about abolishing them entirely. They place an undue burden and constitute a bureaucratic barrier that can delay the execution of the procedure. A lot of doctors will ignore these laws anyway because no judge is going to subpeona medical records and demand proof that there was a reason for bypassing the consent laws.
They don't do what they're supposed to do, and they make an already emotionally difficult process needlessly more complex.
I entirely agree that girls certainly should be honest with their parents, but there are so many situations in which compelling them to do so would complicate the situation. And you're absolutely correct that extremely few abortions are due to rape or incest, but the law needs to maximize protections for these women in particular. Protecting them is infinitely more important than punishing sluts.
A minor choosing to carry the pregnancy to term against the wishes of her family is a situation I have never previously considered. I'm not sure how to handle that. It seems like the daughter would probably be eligible for WIC care or some other sort of government welfare program if her family couldn't or wouldn't support her as a single mother.
Did you just say men are entitled to sexual access to women?
Did you just say you don't like silly inferential rhetorical questions? Good. Me neither.
(continued) ... heehee ... you two should perhaps get a room :)
(continued) ... hahahahaha ... for god's sake .... (whooops ... now the Priest is not going to be happy) ...
Are you suggesting that you illustrated anything to Moonriver by following your own inference to its logical conclusion?
Are you "obliged" to sleep because you are as tired as I am of your sophistry and malaprops?
take it easy guys...i think about this discussion..ill say if they think they will give this baby a good future,,then maybe its ok..but also have to think about other things..if they loves each other..then maybe baby could be a suprize..but i think do the operation its a good way ..cuz u cant running a babys life.
nd also ur future..
You misunderstood, GodFather. I said I was a reverend in the ULC.
I like babys.but i like have babys in a “normal way”
kids deserve Complete love
That's funny. Mod gods just confirmed that "Keith" belongs to the same luser as the other fake accounts.
Keep trolling, kid. I didn't ask for the cult of personality you're helping to build around my online persona, but I'll take what I can get.
Uh, I didn't write the eulogies; I came back by popular demand. Dando's Dead would be evidence of histrionics, not narcissism.
if my girlfriend is pregnant ? en, i'll help her to find the father and wish them a happy ending, if that man can't comfirm , 就把他处理掉 ...
I wil help her,do my best ....but I really have no ideas about it.........maybe the ex is not good one for her and baby ? e~...................ORZ TOO HARD TO COMFIRM...555 LOVELY BABIES...
@eastwood, yes, he does want to settle down. it's just no body wanted to settle down with him. thats why he's pretty happy that life brought surprise.
@ev1612, not letting the guy know about the pregnancy is just simply not cool. imagine what your child would think when he grows up.
i was aways for a few days and really cant keep up with the answers. however, thanks folks, for the discussion, those who dont use every thread to attack each other:)