Discussion » Nonsense » Laowai, how do u see traditional chinese medicine&

  • Corinne Wang
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    Yes. As a Real American, I think practitioners of Traditional Chinese Medicine should be burned at the stake. What they do goes against the natural order established by God.

  • Ejdnzlaj
    Ejdnzlaj wrote:

    I think parts of it are bullshit, like bear bile and tiger penis, but other parts are pretty good. Depending on what I get I find it to be really good for those simple immune system things like colds. I have a massive back up stash of pain killers that actually work though.

  • Sab
    Sab wrote:

    Scott@ you have got a wrong "powder" of herbs. Besides Tylenol made a huge impact on your body what made you feel healthy but the real effects comes later...

  • Sab
    Sab wrote:

    As I believe (and ancient Chinese medicinist too) all the sickness are  psychosomatic, so there is no problem to heal them with natural herbs and other self-healing enforcer stuffs. For westerns the TCM is superficialy seeing is a fake science. But if we dig deeper in its philosphy we may find out that the nature create everything in our body so the laws of nature still does effects on us. The out of balance condition relates some sicknesses but the reason how they went out of balance is reversable. Our body is in fact has meridian channels, and energy flowing. These can be stimulate also for help the body to fix itself. So much knowledge is inside of TCM, hard to understand if people never think about it or learn it.

  • Sab
    Sab wrote:

    "then give someone some dirt and tell them its medicine, and you'll get the same results." Not agree. It is not (only) placebo. It does chemical effect in your body., I know some herbs, you can easily overdose too. 

    Energy flows? You do not have energy? Have you seen a monk pushing a truck over with a sharp arrows at his throath? Only muscle cannot bear that pressure. Every living things has energy, not only material but energy. Material= creates energy, vica versa. Basic physic.

    Prayers is nothing to do with natural healing. Unless it may incrase the mental forces to do changes in the materialistic body by the brain. The brain what also causes the troubles, can also fix them. Simply.

    You are deny of learn it, and think too much stereotypes. I had a Canadian-Jew-Hungarian-French old friend back in my hometown I learned a lot from him. Besides my ex Chinese girlfriend is also a TCM doctor. If this shit would not work in real , would not have exist for 25oo years... Chinese alre still healthier than westerns although here the western healings are still less common and low developed than in West. For example most people not even  have health insurance, but they are still healthy and live longer than in US or in Western Europe due to TCM and natural thinking.

  • Simen Wangberg

    "I have a massive back up stash of pain killers that actually work though"

    Aaaaaand there it is.

    I like to tease my girlfriend by advising her to "drink hot water and have a good rest" when she complains about any ailment, as this seems to be the standard issue treatment suggested by all of my Chinese friends and colleagues when I'm tired/have a sore throat/can't get it up/am in the middle of a massive stroke.

    Not that I'm leaping to defend Western medicine, with all of its magical pathologies and precriptions and so forth. But yeah, I have yet to be convinced of the efficacy of TCM.

    "If this shit would not work in real , would not have exist for 25oo years"

    There are still some people who believe the Earth is flat, so...yeah. Not even gonna touch any of the Biblical myths that people still believe in either.

    Also I'm bored today, so I'm gonna take a stab at this one too:

    "For example most people not even  have health insurance, but they are still healthy and live longer than in US or in Western Europe due to TCM and natural thinking."

    Uh huh. So, if Chinese people live longer than US or European citizens, then why does China have a higher infant mortality rate + lower life expectancy at birth than the United States and comparable European countries? Thanks for playing, better luck next time.

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    "As I believe (and ancient Chinese medicinist too) all the sickness are  psychosomatic"

    Partly. Ancient Chinese herbalists weren't so daft to say that all medical conditions are "in your head". This sounds less like herbalism and more like the insane ravings of Mary Baker Eddy and the Church of Christ, Scientist. These folks believe all diseases are punishments sent by God and that modern medicine is a form of witchcraft. In other words, dumb fucking Americans.

    It is more correct to say that Chinese herbalism is more paradigmatically holistic than reductionist, that part of what ails us is in our heads. Putting your faith in the placebo effect of Chinese medicine is as silly and dismissive as my sarcastic comment upstairs.

    "It is not (only) placebo. It does chemical effect in your body., I know some herbs, you can easily overdose too."

    Precisely. Almost all Western medicine is derived from natural herbs, a great many of which are still used in TCM. Ephedrine and pseudoephedrine come from 麻黄. 

    They're not so different in this respect. The rub is that Western medicine tends to contain only the active chemicals and no plant matter. Your body doesn't really give a shit if a given molecule was synthesized in a lab or photosynthesized by a plant. Where TCM can sometimes be healthier than taking a pill is that it is less of a shock to your system to absorb small amounts of a drug over a long period of time rather than having it all pass through your stomach lining over the course of a few minutes.

    "If this shit would not work in real , would not have exist for 25oo years..."

    Sillier ideas have endured the test of time better than herbalism. Racism, sexism, homophobia, religion, astrology, and palm reading come to mind. What is the utility of these beliefs?

    Members of the Church of Christ, Scientist are still around today as well. Occasionally their adherents get charged with manslaughter or child abuse when they fail to administer medication for easily preventable or treatable diseases such as diabetes.

    My opinion? TCM is occasionally based on primitive but nonetheless empircal scientific methods, but dichotomizing medicine as either Chinese or Western is completely idiotic. Drugs are drugs.

  • K5-35
    K5-35 wrote:

    TCM has a comprehensive set of theories, most of which are already lost during social and political turbulences, it has ceased progressing since the early last century, and the current TCM practitioners who possess the ancient knowledge are almost next to nothing. Moreover, TCM are derivatives from empiricism, more applicable in herbal/alternative therapy while the modern western medicine has managed to combine various fields of sciences. 

    The common notion that TCM is "more natural, safer and healthier" is a mistaken idea. Some of the TCM treatments can be useful alternatives complementary to modern medicine, but some can cause great burdens to internal organs like liver and kidney while many practitioners ignore these elements.

    Some theories of TMC are coherent with modern medicines and can be demonstrated scientifically valid, sadly, China experienced a very backward age over the past centuries that TCM already deceased in essence.

    BTW, most TCM programs on the tele are HOKUM and very few TCM practitioners know the patient or the recipe sufficiently enough to make it work. 

    Instead of studying "hokum knock off" TCM to prolong life, I would advice Chinese people (including myself) to get concerns about the serious environmental hazards in China and change the habits of dining in random unreliable restaurants. 

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    +1 Internet for Persephone.

  • Minger
    Minger wrote:

    Oh well, regading everything Sab said, Dando and Mike beat me to it, but more nicely. A lot of that was just hilarious. Dando, check your stash, I think a large portion may have been misappropriated.

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    The last fool who helped himself to my stash got a lung full of incinerated pubic hairs.

    My guy had given me a free bag of shake, but the bag had a hole in it and I dumped it all on the floor when I arrived in my home. I'd swept it all up and intended to safely vaporize it in a hookah the next day, but a certain roommate couldn't wait for me to get back from work before smoking it. Dumbass. Karma is a bitch!

  • Sab
    Sab wrote:

    Michael@ show me a source of this life expectation data. Although life condition in China is way more worse than in Western countries, women lives longer than in most EU countries. If you see the better developed Hong kong, where also the TCM is dominating over centuries, people definitelly lives longer than in Western countries.

     

    Macao, Singapore, and Hong-kong are in the first 5 country! These countries prefer TCM still more than Western treatments. source>

    List by the CIA World Factbook

    China obviously has an other reason to not get a good score in this, nothing to do with TCM

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    Shorter Sab: "I reject your reality, and substitute my own!"

  • Sab
    Sab wrote:

    Some of you guys had no good experience with TCM, it does not mean some others did not find it usefull. One of my friend is a daily runner, had an injury and pain in his knee. Western medicine only was able to offer him painkillers but nothing else solution. He went to the Chinese doctor *(in Europe) and got a accupunture treatment. After the third treatment his monthes old pain has gone and he back to running happily. Many other case can also prove *(at least for me) that Chinese medicine can provide a gentle way of healing without harm the body by chemicals or operation's knife.

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    Macao, Singapore, and Hong Kong do not eschew Western medicine for TCM. They have highly developed medical institutions because they're filthy fucking rich. The snake oil you're trying to sell us is more common in rural China, where they simply can't afford to visit a hospital.

  • Sab
    Sab wrote:

    Well, they are still Chinese. They believe in TCM and use it. Lifexpectations are high as high in all asia. What is nothing to do with the Western medical system. Rather than their asian attitude, eating habbits and natural way of living and healing.

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    That's right. They're Chinese. The girls wear qipao and their vaginas are sideways. The men put their hair in topknots and practice kung fu. At noon they eat dim sum and drink tea, and there are no cars in the streets because everyone rides a bicycle to work.

    Did I miss any idiotic Orientalist stereotypes?

  • Sab
    Sab wrote:

    You do not need to exaggerate, Chinese trust in TCM and they use it. Even in HK, Macao, and Singapore. I learned a lot about TCM, did you? Or you just make a theoritical debate based on your shallow opinions and experiemnt of TCM. That would not work here. We should have an expert here to explain things. I cannot assure you. I do not have a solid knowledge about it, but I understands some facts and they seems work, plus I saw examples of successful treatment where western medicine did not work at all.

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    Apparently I do need to exaggerate, because you are under the shallow pretense that simply because people in Macao, Singapore, and Hong Kong are ethnically Chinese, that they prefer TCM over going to a hospital. It simply isn't true. The reason those people enjoy greater life expectancy is because they are very wealthy and have highly developed medical institutions that use the same medicine as any other developed country.

    I daresay that's racist stereotypical thinking, even in the absence of malicious intent.

    Read again what Persephone and I had said previously. The dichotomy between Chinese and Western medicine is a false one. All medicine is derived from herbs in the first place; whether it's tea or a pill makes very little difference. The only essential difference is that Chinese medicine employs holistic methods and a cruder form of scientific empiricism.

  • Sab
    Sab wrote:

    There are rich countries elsewhere (with western medicine system and rich hospitals) too with lower life time expectations. The Chinese people in these countries still using TCM mainly. Western medicine comes into the picture when it is too late to heal by natural treatment, see surgieries. The "holistic" methods simply mean, we cannot understand watching it through western science glasses. As for science the soul also not exist because we cannot see it. As energie and meridian lines also not exist for many people who only believe what science ALREADY proved. Yes, we know the Earth is not flat, but nobody can say the science knows everything already. We do not know nothing.

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    "We do not know nothing."

    *facepalm*

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    "There are rich countries elsewhere (with western medicine system and rich hospitals) too with lower life time expectations."

    Which could be due to any number of other factors. This does not prove the superiority of herbalism. Moreover, you need to cite a source for this information.

    "The Chinese people in these countries still using TCM mainly."

    Flat out wrong. It's at best secondary to seeing a doctor. Ask a Hong Konger.

    "Western medicine comes into the picture when it is too late to heal by natural treatment, see surgieries."

    Dentistry is a form of preventative medicine; many problems can be diagnosed by a dentist before a general practitioner. China happens to have very good dentists. This is a much better explanation for your theory than LOL MAGIC.

    "The "holistic" methods simply mean, we cannot understand watching it through western science glasses."

    Once more, there's no dichotomy. So-called "western" drugs are derived from many of the same herbs as Chinese drugs.

    "As for science the soul also not exist because we cannot see it. As energie and meridian lines also not exist for many people who only believe what science ALREADY proved."

    Once again, traditional medicine seems to work because it is actually a primitive form of science. Herbalists notice that if eat a certain plant, you feel better. That's a crude form of experimentation.

    Science is not a western invention.

    "Yes, we know the Earth is not flat, but nobody can say the science knows everything already. We do not know nothing."

    You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, but you can't be convinced otherwise. I think we're done here.

  • pommie
    pommie wrote:

    Most traditional Chinese health beliefs are a kind of superstition. The products used in TCM result in driving endangered animals to extinction and destroying areas of wildlife.

    Also, they encourage people not to use real medicine which is dangerous. Throughout history, millions of people have been killed by TCM.

    Unfortunately, western medical techniques are also used improperly in China because many Chinese doctors are extremely unscrupulous. They give unecessary and dangerous caesarean section to women to make money. China is the worst country in the world for this. Milk powder companies spread lies and bribe doctors to convince women to use powder milk instead of breast milk. This kills thousands of babies every year. Also, Chinese doctors proscribe saline drips unecessarily to make more money. There are, of course, countless other tricks.

    Don't use TCM unless you have to. Don't go to a Chinese doctor unless you have to. Go to a real doctor and get real treatment.

  • Martin Svean
    Martin Svean wrote:

    ask yourself one question and you will have your answers.

     

    How can a billion chinese people be wrong?

  • pommie
    pommie wrote:

    Ignorance, superstition and the intervention of charlatans?

  • Martin Svean
    Martin Svean wrote:

    enuff

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