Discussion » Nonsense » Obama care in the United States

  • Kodi
    Kodi wrote:

          Obama attempted to overhaul healthcare in the United States with hopes of covering a majority of American people by at least minimum healthcare coverage plans.  However, since we have a political divide in the United States the political lobbyists (who are against Obama care) are able to use pressure to push the agenda of the party who agrees with them.  The plan is supposed to offer an alternative to expensive work sponsored health care plans, however employers who's bottom lines are purely economic have used this opportunity to drop hundreds of thousands of Americans from work sponsored health care plans blaming the Obama Care plan as being the cause for this "Inability to compete." 

          I am reluctant to believe that these companies are unable to compete.  I think they are unwilling to compete. It is rather embarrassing that the richest country in the world with the most resources and means for building the most advanced and universally stable society on Earth is fumbling to create a system to provide effective healthcare coverage to its citizens.  The few embarrassing things I notice are:  We are arguing over money, Our government has no clear authority to control what happens in regard to companies unwillingness to fall in line with the new plan, the way our political parties use this plan to either make or break campaigns.  They do not care who gets healthcare.  Its all about who pays for it. 

          My view is:  You want to do business in the United States?  We have a healthcare bill here that facilitates universal health care.  This is the cost of doing business here.  If they will simply crunch the numbers and drop employees from health plans because they view keeping them as a liablity, then we need to make it economically feasable to keep those employees on the roles by raising the penalties for dropping them.  Otherwise they can get the fuck out of America.  The capitalists may view this as a step toward socialism, and they are right.  There should be a balance.....  At least we are not killing them.....Yet. 

          It seems that the people in the US are panicking because they are being dropped from healthcare plans and being forced to rely on state run plans.  I think this is a ploy by the big businesses to rally support against Obama Care.  It should be illegal to manipulate the people in this way.

  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)

    ...

    Hahahahaha ... Kodi ... you wrote this? Is this the entire piece, or where is the original piece?

    What I found most interesting, is the comment "The capitalists may view this as a step toward socialism"... so, while the States is moving towards socialism, China is moving towards capitalism, and either country is not doing such a good job ...

     

  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)

    ...

    Hahahahaha .. so is he some type of real-life blown up male doll made in Japan?

  • Simen Wangberg

    "and either country is not doing such a good job"

    Baby steps. We were pretty much dragging socalists through the streets just 50 years ago in the States. I don't think capitalism was too popular in China until recently either.

  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)

    ...

    Hahahaha ... I would beg to differ ...

    As far as Chinese or our history is concerned, "capitalism" is in the blood of most of us (or perhaps just Shanghai folks? heehee), and if I can go one step further, I believe "M+A" might have been invented by Chinese ...

    I dont think Communism is "bad", but it did detour China from capitalist for half a century ...

  • Daniel Westerberg

    It's dangerous to offer health care to the entire population, that is one way to get a free democratic country to quickly turn into a dictatorship :D

  • Pavoir Sponse
    Pavoir Sponse wrote:

    Kodi is absolutely right, big business are clearly using this as an excuse to scaremonger, push forward a selfish neo-liberal agenda and apply political pressure on Obama.

    The availability of decent healthcare for ALL is at least the beginnings of a civilised and humane society and Obama should be applauded for what he has done.

    As far as China goes, the Government should start to sensibly invest some its huge budget surplus on strong health infrastructure for its people

  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)

    ...

    Hahahaha ... I agreed with Carlos ... sadly, however, I think the government should fix the corruption (and/or bad administration) of the health care system before spending the money (or too much money), otherwise, we will see many new 5-star toilets, or nurses driving 7-class BMW, or administrators going to Las Vegas to "research" about the hospitals, instead of the money being spent in the most important place, i.e. the people ...

     

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    Since the finished legislation omitted the public option (or a single-payer healthcare plan like Canada, Japan, and most of Europe), it's a stretch to call the result "socialism". Since it still includes the mandate for all people to get insurance, I think it's less socialist than it is flagrantly corporatist. Basically it's a huge gift to the insurance companies. Now you HAVE TO purchase insurance. The only substantial other difference is that now consumers are not restricted to buying insurance in their own state. Big. Fuckin'. Deal.

    A truly socialist answer would be to nationalize the insurance industry because it's utterly unproductive and non-competetive. They don't build or create anything. They don't exist to provide a service; in fact they employ a vast bureaucracy to find creative ways to deny service. The only competition insurance companies engage in is based on speculation and risk assessment, which basically just boils down to disqualifying "high risk" patients with pre-existing conditions from getting treatment.

    Clearly this is not an institution where capitalism "just works." This is not a system where the invisible hand is ensuring the best possible outcomes for the greatest number of people. And there's a point at which the millions of poor people who can't afford decent healthcare will affect the people who do have it. Even the most basic health insurance is expensive now because people with otherwise easily preventable conditions will only visit the doctor when their problems have become too serious, and the money for those "free" trips to the emergency room has to come from somewhere.

    Barry tried, maybe harder than Bill and Hill, but conservative think tanks have been working far longer and far harder to convince us that our system is the best, because Canadians hate their single-payer system and frequently go to America for serious care (UTTER FUCKING BULLSHIT).

    America's never going to move forward until we realize that the contradictions between capitalism and socialism are not insurmountable. That is, until it dawns upon the majority of Americans that some socialist policies (e.g. the New Deal, creating jobs through public works like infrastructure development) are actually good for the economy, we're going to continue to oppose sensible public policies on narrow-minded ideological grounds.

  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)

    ...

    Just for my education ...

    1. "Even the most basic health insurance is expensive" ... what's the "measurement" here?

    2. "Canadians hate their single-payer system and frequently go to America for serious care" ... can anyone explain this?

    Thanks :)

  • Rick (史大龙)

     

    What many of you fail to realize is that "health care" is not a right! Another thing is this health care bill was forced through without most people reading it and without regards to how much it will cost that is why over half of the states are suing the federal government. Additionally it was passed to give health care to all that want it??? Give me a break! There’s only about 34 million in the US without some form of health care, so they force this on the majority of the people for 10% of the people??? Where’s the justice in that? Besides out of those 34 million almost half are between the ages of 19 and 27 who don't want health care because they still think they don't need it, so this was done for about 5% of the people.  I'm not saying that some changes didn't need to take place, like denying coverage for those with existing problems or cap limits needing to be raised. No system is perfect, but the free market in health care is what makes the US the best place in the world for getting treated and development of new drugs and procedures. If they really wanted to make a difference then they should allow insurance companies to compete across state lines. This will force them to be competitive on price just like other industries (free market rules). And for those of you that are not Americans and think Obama is so good, I wish you would take him to your country, but not China I like it too much…

  • Rick (史大龙)

    @叮噹叔叔 (妇协杂工), Canadians come to the US because of there single payer system. They have to wait too long or the Doctors are not very good due to the same system only paying them so much for their services...

  • Pavoir Sponse
    Pavoir Sponse wrote:

    Rick you write, " What many of you fail to realize is that "health care" is not a right!" as if this is some kind of immutable truth.

    It is highly debatable in deciding if there is there are any natural laws that dictate what is a right and what is not. That being the case I think it is up to humans to decide, through their actions, what is a right and what isn't.

    I, for one, am quite comfortable enshrining health care as a basic right as are money others.

    As for US health care I personally would have a supported a nationalised system more similar to the UK model but what with politics being the 'art of the possible' that would not have been possible in the US.

    34 million people without any form of health care sounds pretty bad to me.

  • Pavoir Sponse
    Pavoir Sponse wrote:

    apologies for spelling and grammar, have just woke up!

  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)

    ...

    Hahahahaha ... I cannot imagine if Obama adopted Chinese nationality and become a party member ... wow, that will be some party ...

    One thing I have learnt over the years, although it might mean differently to others, the most basic of education, health care and police, are essential to sustain a society, but if any one of these being weakened or insufficient, the society could face some major issue ...

    How does everyone feel about this?

     

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    @DD,

    I think I said it was utter fucking bullshit.

     

    @Rick,

    You clearly don't understand the structure of the Canadian healthcare system if you don't think their doctors are paid competetive salaries. Canada's filthy rich due to its vast resources and low population. You may argue that their system couldn't be adapted to suit the US, but to suggest that Canadians are unhappy with their system is foolish. Even my comparatively wealthy Cannuck pals think that's bullshit.

  • Simen Wangberg

    "What many of you fail to realize is that "health care" is not a right!"

    Elaborate on this. I can't exercise all of my other rights as a United States citizen if I'm dead from a terminal illness that I was too broke to treat. I feel like affordable health care kinda trumps all that other nice stuff we have (free speech, representative government, right to bear arms, etc).

    I can't write a letter to the editor if I'm dead. I can't vote if I'm dead. I can't shop at Wal-Mart and watch Dancing With The Stars if I'm dead. Give me that affordable universal health care. I believe that I have a right to live, shave and die in the YOU ESS OF EH.

    Gives the saying "I'll give you my gun when you take it from my cold, dead hands!" a whole new meaning.

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    Life, liberty, pursuit of happiness.

    Two out of three ain't bad.

  • Rick (史大龙)

    @Carlos

    remember that at least half of thos 34 million choose NOT to have the health care.

  • Rick (史大龙)

    @Dando Z 单独子, you're right maybe I don't fully understand the Canadian health system, but I do know and understand that any of the Canadians that have the means and ability to come to the US for treatment thet ALL do. That should tell you how they feel about the two health systems. Bullshit or not it's the truth!

  • Rick (史大龙)

    @Mike,

    Spoken like a true liberal, well done! You obviously have never been in an inner city hospital whereas 90% of the people have no insurance yet still are treated. As for health care being a right, the only thing is you have the right to get health care. Do some homework and find out how many of those without health care also don't have a job or the real number of un-insured that can't get treatment. I am sure you will be surprised and find that the number that goes without treatment is quite small.     Trust me I don't think the system is perfect, but as in any venture, the free market makes it stronger and smarter and just about anything that the government (US Government) touches gets screwed up!

  • Pavoir Sponse
    Pavoir Sponse wrote:

    What about the other half Rick?

     

    Oh and why would anyone choose not to have healthcare?

  • Rick (史大龙)

    @Carlos, the other half can go into almost any hospital and get free care now. Just as I said, go into any inner city hospital and 90% of the people are getting treated at no cost to them. This whole reason this was passed is to complete Obama's plan for "redistribution of wealth". there's only a few things that need to be changed within our health system, but not a complete overhaul!

    Many of the people that do not want health care is because they are young and think they don't need it! Does that make them smart? no, but it is their choice. I guess they would rather spend the money they save on health care on a car payment. I can't speak for them, but that is how it is.

     

  • Simen Wangberg

    "...the free market makes it stronger and smarter and just about anything that the government (US Government) touches gets screwed up!"

    Ah yes. The same free market that allowed the housing/banking crises to flourish...that one. I would rather have any given system be in the hands of an inept bureaucracy than a private industry where people are knowingly duping or cheating people for their own financial gain. The government might be stupid, but at least it's not evil - well, not all of it, theoretically.

    Inner city hospitals...yeah, they're just as crowded with freeloaders as the welfare office ever was, but you don't see them nixing that entire institution just because of a few mooches.

    You said it's unjust to impose a new health care system on millions just to benefit the small (or so you claim) amount of people that don't have insurance...let's flip that one around. Is it fair to kill off the whole program just because a small proportion of people will abuse it?

     

  • Li Yuan
    Li Yuan wrote:

    Has anyone read about the health care bill? I doubt it. I don't think it's right to vote for it without even read about it.

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    Rick,

    And yet it's not the truth. A goddamned myth--an old one, at that--just like the rest of the meaningless statistics and wingnut talking points you regurgitated. But hey. I can't blame you for not sourcing any of your wild assertions. You can't provide a hyperlink for talk radio, can you?

    Link.

    Health Affairs May/June 2002

    Phantoms In The Snow: Canadians' Use Of Health Care Services In The United States

    Surprisingly few Canadians travel to the United States for health care, despite the persistence of the myth.

    by Steven J. Katz, Karen Cardiff, Marina Pascali, Morris L. Barer, and Robert G. Evans

    A tip without an iceberg?

    This study was undertaken to quantify the nature and extent of use by Canadians of medical services provided in the United States. It is frequently claimed, by critics of single-payer public health insurance on both sides of the border, that such use is large and that it reflects Canadian patients' dissatisfaction with their inadequate health care system. All of the evidence we have, however, indicates that the anecdotal reports of Medicare refugees from Canada are not the tip of a southbound iceberg but a small number of scattered cubes. The cross- border flow of care-seeking patients appears to be very small.

    Are we done here?

  • Rick (史大龙)

    Dando Z 单独子 No we’re not done here. I too can throw facts and links to several different articles supporting my point of view such as an article by David Gratzer of the City Journal http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_canadian_healthcare.html titled “The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care.”  Here are just a few quotes from the article for you. “Socialized medicine has meant rationed care and lack of innovation. Small wonder Canadians are looking to the market.”  “Nor were the problems I identified unique to Canada—they characterized all government-run health-care systems. Consider the recent British controversy over a cancer patient who tried to get an appointment with a specialist, only to have it canceled—48 times. More than 1 million Britons must wait for some type of care, with 200,000 in line for longer than six months.”

    I could find you hundreds of articles just like this one. Again BELIEVE me I am not saying that the system in the US is perfect and I do agree that some changes need to be made, just not a complete overhaul of the system we have. Thousands of doctors across the country have gone on record saying that “if Obama care goes forward that they would get out of medicine” Who better to know what is wrong with this bill then those charged to provide it?

    Just another great point as to how good this health care bill is, many of the Democrat House of Representatives and Senate candidates are running away from the health bill they passed. ”One Democratic strategist said it would be “political malfeasance” to run such an ad now.

    Democrats have taken that advice to heart; it appears that no Democratic incumbent — in the House or in the Senate — has run a pro-reform TV ad since April, when Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) ran one.”
    Oh and here’s the link if you want to read it yourself http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=DE1E691B-18FE-70B2-A813ACC3D55691DE

  • Rick (史大龙)

    @Mike,

    I can’t believe you would link health care to the collapse of the housing market as if this will help your point, to the contrary it helps mine. It was the federal government sticking its nose into that market that caused the collapse of the housing market in the first place.

    To quote a article by Charlotte Thomson Iserbyt a Former Senior Policy Advisor, U.S. Department of Education ” Democrats pushing mortgages to those who could not afford them are just as much to blame as those who flooded the economy with cheap cash.” And the word Democrats in this article means (Government). http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/democrats_housing_collapse_092808.html

    And for the inner city hospitals, no I don’t see them nixing the entire institution. That is my point, millions already get free care!

  • Rick (史大龙)

    @Li Yuan, great point!

    Democratic Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi of San Francisco on the health care bill: “We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it.” http://blogs.dailymail.com/donsurber/archives/10427 

    As the American people find out what is in the bill they DON'T like it and it will show in this election. Many people say they are voting to show that they disagree with the agenda of the current administration, we'll see in a few days.

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    I posted a link to an article from a peer-edited academic journal directly refuting a myth about Canadian healthcare--a myth which I identified up in my first post in the thread, and you nonetheless parroted like it's the Gospel truth, saying "Bullshit or not it's the truth!"

    Are you really so confused about the meaning of bullshit?

    Then, you posted a link to an article from a conservative op-ed mag and another from a blog, and neither really address the point or provide credible statistics on the number of Canadians crossing the border for American healthcare. It's still patently false. Now you're just dredging up a bunch of irrelevant shit to obsure the fact that you've been caught repeating a lie. An old lie. Check the date of the article I posted.

    Moreover, Canada doesn't even have a socialized healthcare system! A socialized system would be one in which all hospitals and clinics are administrated by the state and all doctors are state employees. This is not true of Canada. Doctors have private practices. What Canada has is a single-payer system in place of America's muddy private insurance bureaucracies. Doctors earn lower salaries there, but they also have less overhead and they aren't burdened with the high costs of malpractice insurance. The Canadian system isn't perfect, but the way you describe it is absolutely fallacious. That you can't get your facts straight undermines all of your other points, which rely on our confidence in your ability to gather information.

    So, besides being a liar, you're also dreadfully misinformed.

    I've argued this topic with conservatives who were more eloquent, well-informed, and honest than you. You're an embarrassment.

  • Rick (史大龙)

    @Dando Z 单独子,

    In typical liberal fashion you can’t take anything that does not match your view as truth, you are so blind that you think there is only one side to any story and it just happens to be your side. The date of your article means shit like your opinion because it is such a one side view. However to call me a liar when I post others opinion is also a typical liberal move, always resorting to personal attacks when someone has a different view from you.

    Ok call it socialized health care or a single payer either way it is run by the government and still screwed up.

    Oh and by the way “Canada's health care system is a group of socialized health insurance plans that provides coverage to all Canadian citizens. It is publicly funded and administered on a provincial or territorial basis, within guidelines set by the federal government.” “Canada's health care system is the subject of much political controversy and debate in the country. Some question the efficiencies of the current system to deliver treatments in a timely fashion, and advocate adopting a private system similar to the United States.” These are quotes from http://www.canadian-healthcare.org/ maybe you should question your own ability to gather information!

    So go ahead and hurl your insults all you want, just don’t do it when we are face to face you will regret it I promise you that! Then you can check out China’s health care system…

  • Pavoir Sponse
    Pavoir Sponse wrote:

    Rick,

     

    if, as you you say, any person of poor means can go to a hospital and get treated then that's fine, my postings have been wasted. This was not what I had been led to believe, indeed I'm still somewhat suspicious.

     

    As for your point about people not choosing healthcare because they want to buy a car or whatever. I can see your point, which is exactly why some kind of universal healthcare is necessary. People may make poor choices but ultimately I think it is inhumane to deny people medical care, whatever choices they have made. I suspect you'll disagree on this point. 

  • Rick (史大龙)

    @ Carlos

    I do believe that you have a right to your opinion, we might disagree, but that's ok, I prefer to have different opinions on important issues... I am done on this one... Thanks everyone for the debate...

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    Dick,

    In typical liberal fashion you can’t take anything that does not match your view as truth,

    Pot to kettle: you are black.

    In typical wingnut fashion, you use liberal as a pejorative. Ow, that hurts. Really. You got me all wrong. In fact, I'm a democratic socialist who is dismayed at how tepid and conservative the final version of the healthcare bill ended up. To you, liberalism is synonymous with socialism because you just generalize everything that isn't batshit reactionary conservatism as being left-wing and wrong, as if there's even a single issue that all liberals agree on.

    I give you about three posts before you pull a Godwin.

    you are so blind that you think there is only one side to any story and it just happens to be your side. The date of your article means shit like your opinion because it is such a one side view.

    How many sides have you presented? Scarcely even one. On the other hand, I anticipated many of your arguments with a previous post, including the outright lie that Canadians prefer the American healthcare system. Clearly, I've given more thought to your side of the argument than you have to mine.

    However to call me a liar when I post others opinion is also a typical liberal move, always resorting to personal attacks when someone has a different view from you.

    Don't whine about personal attacks. You started the personal attacks by using liberal as an invective and you prefaced your first post with "What you all fail to understand". The gloves were off at that moment. You're fucking rude and you don't show any respect for any of the many "one-sided" views that conflict with your own ill-informed opinion.

    Ok call it socialized health care or a single payer either way it is run by the government and still screwed up.

    See this, folks? He clearly doesn't care about the specifics.

    So, generalizing that everything the government does is bad is NOT a narrow-minded or one-sided view? Fuck abolition and reconstruction! Fuck the New Deal! Fuck civil rights! Fuck medicare and medicaid and child labor laws! Walk to work and drink dirty water from a well! Our government should only be responsible for killing people who are different from us, so we can take their stuff!

    What you just said is that you don't give a shit about the nuances or structure of the Canadian system at all. You clearly don't care to be informed. The only thing that matters to you is that the government is involved in it, therefore it must be bad. For once we agree. The government really can't do anything right. It certainly can't train Marines to think critically.

    Oh and by the way “Canada's health care system is a group of socialized health insurance plans (DANDO's NOTE: emphasis mine) that provides coverage to all Canadian citizens. It is publicly funded and administered on a provincial or territorial basis, within guidelines set by the federal...

    First off, that's not even a real website. That's an advertising portal for someone's Yoga & Fitness website. It doesn't even have contact information or sources. It's certainly not maintained by the Canadian government. It has no reliable information. For you, background research means typing "canadian healthcare" into Google and pressing "I Feel Lucky". When you read random shit on the Internet, do you ever stop to ask yourself "Who wrote this?"

    Secondly, they're referring to the insurance system as being publicly administrated. Where do they say that hospitals and clinics are run by the state? Nowhere. It's not socialized medicine. It's their health insurance system that's been socialized, not its medical system.

    As I said, doctors still have private practices in Canada. They are not sta

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:

    There is a federal law saying that hospital emergency rooms cannot legally refuse treatment to anybody, even if they don't have money or insurance to pay for treatment.

    That does not mean that poor people can walk into any hospital and get free treatment. They have to wait until their condition is life-threatening before they can do this. They'll still be billed for it afterwards, likely harassed by a collections agency if they can't afford it. Many problems would be cheaper and easier to treat if they had access to regular care.

    Moreover, the money for those procedures has to come from somewhere--usually the margins of hospital accounting records. It's one of the reasons insurance premiums are so prohibitively expensive.

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