Discussion » Nonsense » Are Chinese Guys Really That Bad?

  • Vincent AKA 文森特
    Vincent AKA 文森特 wrote:
    Right. Before anyone attacks, crucifies or insults me lemme start by saying that I have no intent of bad mouthing anyone. I base what I write on facts, my own experiences and experiences shared with me by friends (foreign & local). Also this is a broad generalization about Chinese women based on my experiences, inevitably it does not tell the whole story. I stand to be corrected.

    These days there are numerous foreign people coming to China, to either study at a Chinese university, work for a foreign or Chinese company, do an internship or simply travel. It is usually only a matter of time until a foreign man has a date with a Chinese woman and vice versa in China. For the most part foreign men experience less problems in finding a date with one of China’s beautiful women.

    Foreign men can easily get a date in China, because there are plenty of Chinese women throwing themselves deliberately at foreign men with a view to marry them one day and enter the gateway to a luxurious life. There are quite a few foreign men open to the seduction of this kind of woman, while having a wife waiting for them at home.
    Chinese women blatantly throw themselves at foreigners. Look at personals sites in China, 90% of members are females searching for a foreigner. Go to bars, pubs and nightclubs - same story.
    On the other hand...

    The sight of a foreign woman and Chinese boyfriend or Chinese husband is much rarer than its counterpart, the foreign man and Chinese woman. If you go to any major city in China, you will invariably run into the foreign man-Chinese woman pairings in any major tourist or shopping destination; not so with foreign women and Chinese men.

    Why is this. I for one think it has a lot to do with how the respective parties are portrayed in the media. If there are some admirable aspects of the portrayals of Asian women in Hollywood and on TV, it’s hard to say the same of the portrayals of Asian men. Rarely have they been depicted with traditionally masculine traits. With a few exceptions, Asian men on screen have been small, sneaky and threatening-or spineless, emasculated wimps, or incompetents who may well be technically proficient in martial arts, but impotent when faced with "white man’s" superior strength or firepower. Lacking machismo, they almost never get the girl.
    Action heroes such as Chow Yun Fat and Jackie Chan rarely get the girl.Asian men can kick butt, but they can’t have a kiss!!

    A friend told me he once had a Russian girlfriend when he was a college student. But he said he was never able to satisfy her (yes, in that way), so they parted. The experience was so traumatic that he never sought another foreign girlfriend again.
    On the flip side, I suspect that some foreign women might be unwilling to give Chinese men a chance because of money. Average Chinese men tend not to earn big salaries in China, unless they are, for example, bosses, high-powered execs, or an in-demand talent. And if they are to leave China to go to her country, they will face even more obstacles to earning money-language, culture, prejudices.

    Anyways getting a bit off topic, my ultimate goal is to find out why Chinese women chase after foreigners (especially my white brothers) like possessed chickens on heat. And don't tell me it's like that in all countries. The infatuation with the unknown. Cause it is NOT. In other countries it happens but on a much, much lower level. And it is mostly done by men. Women from my country don't even like dating foreigners, even in BJ they still search for their own.

    Any comments??
  • Ikevenson
    Ikevenson wrote:
    No comments. Black men are the BEST! I wish I was black like every single day ... ;) lol
    good u having a good time in China/BLCU buddy.
  • Simen Stensvoll
    all guys are bad
    girls are the best!!!!
  • Erik Aleksander Aas
    @Yanyuan;
    Mmmm. No, black men are not the best. I never said that. I am pretty pathetic when it comes to women. I guess that's because I prefer being a one woman man as opposed to having meaningless flings. I am just stating the facts here.......buddy.
    Can you honestly say that many Chinese women do not behave like this?? Theres nothing wrong with it, I don't judge. I merely wanna know why this phenomenon occurs.

    Good luck with your quest in wanting to become black!
  • Daniel Westerberg
    Seriously, the majority of the Chinese girls are NOT obsessed by foreigners.. it just seems like that because you hang out in places where the girls who are obsessed by foreigners hang out..
  • Minger
    Minger wrote:
    Vincent, Jackie may not get to kiss the girls in his movies, but fucking him is a prerequisite for a pretty girl to work in the HK gangster controlled movie industry :-p

    Seriously though (well, that was serious, so I guess I should say "back to the point") foreign men fit acceptably into the cultural mold of what some Chinese women are looking for. Chinese men, conversely, do not fit well into the mold of what most foreign women are looking for.

    in (gross) generalization Chinese women like guys with
    more money than them
    taller than them
    more muscle than them

    in (gross) generalization foreign women like guys with
    more money than them
    taller than them
    more muscle than them
    maybe the other thing

    See my point? Of course, there are no shortage of cases where Chinese men can satisfy these requirements for foreign women. However, I don't know why they would specifically choose to be with foreign women, when these guys would also naturally satisfy the requirements of Chinese women as well, and the Chinese women would probably be skinnier, easier to communicate with, and more accepting of the guy fucking around...
  • Da Fan
    Da Fan wrote:
    Ahhh...age-old question, and it's not even a question for me, coz: "it just seems like that because you hang out in places where the girls who are obsessed by foreigners hang out."

    I have to say, social circle for most foreigners is quite narrow.
  • anita sønsterud
    傻逼问题.....我们中国人的父亲都是中国男人!!!你觉得呢??
  • anita sønsterud
    i guess cause you have fucked bunch of chinese women,and they might have told you that your sexuality is better,maybe you are more wild...but does it proves it Chinese guy are bad??perhaps fool youself is fun,The benevolent see bebevolence and the wise see wisdom ....further more if some of your chinese friends told you this.I hardly think it's a impersonal verdict...anything has its both sides....

  • Minger
    Minger wrote:
    To clarify some things before we're all crucified, Chinese women, just like most other women and most other men, are usually interested in dating men or women from their own country and race.

    But, Vincent has observed that there are more Chinese women with foreign men than there are foreign women with Chinese men. I agree with this observation. I do not hang out in places where there are many foreigners, with the exception of WLIB.

    Yes many of us foreigners have biased social circles because we're lazy and just accept those people who come over and throw themselves at us. If we only know the girls who throw themselves at us and a few teachers/students/coworkers, it's easy for us to mistakenly think that all local girls are interested in us. Please forgive this error if it offends you. In my observations, attractive foreign girls also find huge numbers of local men chasing them, although they do not find it so flattering.
  • Joakim Berg Solum
    "Because good Chinese boys are hard to get, and they are more loyal and good self-restrain, and i think these characteristics are regarded as good thing both in west and east! So maybe you just mean available sex to some Chinese girls! "

    Yup. Because local Chinese guys don't fool around with random women or anything like that. Purchasing a mistress is far more loyal, self-restrained, and civilized.
  • A豆腐
    A豆腐 wrote:
    QUOTE -but impotent when faced with "white man’s" superior strength or firepower. Lacking machismo, they almost never get the girl.-

    in fact, in the most of hollywood movies (and also porn movies!!!) the usually combo is chinese-black, the whites usually appears with japanese.
    look at the new version of karate kid with jackie chan and the son of Will Smith
    or Romeo must die (yep, hurt ur eyes watching this)
  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)
    ...

    Hahahaha ... Vincent: "Foreign men can easily get a date in China" ... but there are also a lot of losers who cannot get a date in real life (perhaps due to physical appearance or otherwise), instead, they tried to con women into dating...

    ... there is one who "harassed" girls to go to Viva, presumably that's close to where he lives ...

    ... there is one who asked ANY women for phone number, and then group-text them, hoping to get a random hit ...

    ***

    Anyway, let's get back on track ... in my opinion, it comes down to the fact that "some" Chinese are materialistic (or just realistic), and have some form of "inferior complex" ...

    Before the "open invasion" of the real foreigners, back in the 70's, and even 80's and 90's, a lot of "foreign investors" from Taiwan and Hong Kong relocated their factories to mainland because of lower cost, and the workers were often people from poor villages where owning a TV or VCR would be an impossible dream (in 80's and 90's, the impossible dream was "upgraded" to a little house or apartment) ...

    Needless to say, many of these men were already married, but they often stayed (alone) in mainland for long periods, so some of them would use their money to achieve certain "pleasure" ... some would go for a simple "business transaction", while others would "target" certain girls in the factories, waved their money and then gave these girls TV, VCR or even an apartment, and in return, these girls will be "looked after" ...

    The sad news is, some of these investors got busted and had to leave (or they just left the girls because they wanted a "change"), and then these girls were often left with, at best, an apartment and maybe some cash, at worst, a child with no legal status ... (I have chatted with two of such, both in their late twenties, and both had asked us to adopt their children so that I can bring the kids to Australia for perhaps a better future) ...

    Does this kind of story sound familiar to anyone? You just need to change the HK or Taiwan investors to expats, and factories to some trading companies in Beijing, and the rest are pretty much the same ...

    So, the question being "are Chinese guys really that bad" ... well, I would say "no", but some (or a lot of) girls hope for better lives, and they chose foreign guys even if there is one-in-a-millonth chance that they might end up living happily ever after ...
  • Joakim Berg Solum
    The funny thing is that the girls throwing themselves at foreigners nowdays usually aren't the ones living in poverty either. It's usually a single child with a somewhat reasonably well-off family who is afforded the time and tutoring to learn a foreign language. So they aren't exactly trying to escape poverty. You ever see a foreign guy with a farm girl? Sometimes, but not very often right?
  • Malin Aaker
    Malin Aaker wrote:
    Here's my boss'version of the wedding:
    He was not married, no girlfriend nothing and was getting pretty old (I guess it means 25 or so because as far as I remember the numbers, majority of chinese are married by that age). So he got introduced to a girl through friends of friends of friends. They did hang out 2 or 3 times (restaurant, movie and I don't know), then sat down to talk about "Hey so, do you think it's ok to get married?".

    No romance, nothing, sure he's got a decent job as a manager, owns his apartment. But when everyone tells me about those reasons (job / car / money / apartment / status), well it sounds more like an arrangement than anything else.

    Do foreign women want an arrangement? I'd say it depends, but women in many westernized countries have been used to be chased, hit on, live a thrill of romance, and now they're in China does not mean they want this to change. And I feel many Chinese boys / men / dudes do not really feel the need for that, or are not used to it at least.

    The few times I've had a Chinese friend tell me he was attracted to a foreign girl, he was so scared of her he couldn't even reply to her.

    Oh and @Nikkiebaby, when you say "good Chinese boys are hard to get" you exactly confirm the point of the initial poster: it means good Chinese boys are rare, therefore, most chinese boys are not good = bad!
  • Amalie Sæverud
    no hard t get means you need to spend more energy and thought to get a Chinese good boy ! It doesn't mean rare ,they r only rare on this web
  • Erik Aleksander Aas
    Before replying to your comments individually lemme rephrase my question. Are Chinese guys really that bad....or does the problem lie with Chinese women? I have numerous Chinese male friends. Ranging from CEOs of their own companies, pilots, engineers and journalists. These guys are successful, well educated, well read, good looking and just downright nice guys. And lemme shoot straight when it comes to dick size. I visit the gym often and trust me some of these locals pack a pretty good package! Anyway, that should not matter. I admit that my question was a bit misleading but I wanted to show that in fact Chinese guys are NOT that bad so why do Chinese women in my experience tend to go for foreigners?

    Daniel wrote:
    .. it just seems like that because you hang out in places where the girls who are obsessed by foreigners hang out..

    Da Fan wrote:
    I have to say, social circle for most foreigners is quite narrow.

    I am not your typical foreigner that hangs out in Sanlitun or Wudaokou. In fact I think for a guy my age to still hang out at places like these is pathetic. Being surrounded by drink, loud and immature peeps is just NOT my scene. So NO, my experiences are not based on women at these places. I work in an industry which does not include people that are very fond of places like these. Well educated, rich and classy women that I know still have this infatuation with foreigners. I've spent months in Shanghai and Changchun; visited numerous other tourist destinations in China and some smaller towns. Everywhere it's the same.

    Sharpay wrote:
    I guess cause you have fucked bunch of chinese women,and they might have told you that your sexuality is better,maybe you are more wild...but does it proves it Chinese guy are bad??perhaps fool youself is fun,The benevolent see bebevolence and the wise see wisdom ....further more if some of your chinese friends told you this.I hardly think it's a impersonal verdict...anything has its both sides...

    No I have NOT fucked a bunch of Chinese women. In fact my sexual experiences are limited to 1 when it comes to Chinese women. I dated a Chinese girl for 7 months back in 2006 when I was part of a delegation from my country overseeing the purchase of K-8 jet trainers from your government. Why do you instinctively think that this phenomenon is based on performance in the bedroom? Good and bad lovers are found everywhere and it is not specific to race!

    Peter wrote:
    Dumb question.
    Easy answer: No, they're not that bad.
    There are a billion and a half people. Any group of people, even a group with a minority opinion, is going to be huge (gay people, rich people, poor people, girls who like foreigners, etc.). Don't confuse a large group of people with minority opinions as the majority.
    And Da Fan has a point. Your circle is small. You tend to think about the same things all the time. Get a life, Vincent Van Wyk.

    Dumb answer Peter. Thanks for your totally useless social studies lecture. If you're honest with yourself you will agree that this happens in China-a lot! My circle is small? I'm not not your typical foreigner (a group that you belong to) that came to China for greener pastures. My institution have been doing business with the biggest aviation supplier in China for more than 10 years. Me being here is based on a 280millionRMB 5 year deal signed between respective parties. Do not think that my desire to learn the language of our business partner has anything to do with need. I'm here by choice, a choice that involves a shitload of money. Get a life? People would kill for my life, including you. Piss off ass wipe.

    (continued)
  • Erik Aleksander Aas
    (continued)

    Nikkiebaby wrote:
    don't flatter yourself that much! the reason could simply be" you are too available!!!" I found most foreigners on this website: students, teachers, DJ, travellers, event producer? these are not regarded as decent jobs in China!! most of them can't afford to buy any apartment here in Beijing! And you think you are on the top list of Chinese girls?!!! Chinese girls will behave much nicer and decent before Chinese boys with decent jobs, that's for sure!!! Because good Chinese boys are hard to get, and they are more loyal and good self-restrain, and i think these characteristics are regarded as good thing both in west and east! So maybe you just mean available sex to some Chinese girls!

    Unfortunately I only DJ for fun, don't consider it a job. I am an aeronautical engineer with 8 years experience. I make more money per annum than you could ever dream of. Get this, after learning Chinese I'll be starting my masters in aeronautical engineering in September. I still get payed my salary every month by my employer. I also get payed to be here by our Chinese business partners. At the moment I lease 2 apartments in Beijing. I own a 6 bedroomed, 3 bathroom, 3 kitchen, 2 living room etc. house(note NOT apartment) house in my country. A house most Chinese would consider a mansion. So NO, I'm not on the top of every Chinese girls list, I'm on top of most girls' list in the world. I'm not bragging, just stating facts you forced me to. Available for sex with Chinese women?? Please women, don't you go flattering yourself!!
  • SaSa♣Yi
    SaSa♣Yi wrote:
    Jon, if u guys become roommate, pls show him how awesome Chinses guy is!!!
  • Joakim Berg Solum
    SaSa you know that I'm about as Chinese as a crab Rangoon or sesame chicken...
  • Joakim Berg Solum
    Vincent, I think what we really should be talking about is how mind-numbingly boring many of these foreigner-groupie Chinese girls are. Often times I talk to girls and they seem like they are interested in what I have to say but offer very little in return. Perhaps it's just a language issue that I haven't overcome yet?
  • Amber
    Amber wrote:
    i miss u so much..................
  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)
    ...

    Hahahaha ... Vincent ... thanks heaps :)
  • Joakim Berg Solum
    I miss you too Amber. Mostly your legs though.
  • Malin Aaker
    Malin Aaker wrote:
    Get a room you 2!
  • Amber
    Amber wrote:
    haaaaaaaa,my legs..............this is the second time that u metioned them. .......are they really attractive to u?
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    I travel in weird social circles exclusively. I don't know any normal people, nor do I want to. So I won't make any generalizations.

    Most of my Chinese lady pals don't date Chinese guys, but I suspect that dating laowai is just a temporary phase for them, and when they turn 27 they'll be complaining to their Chinese fiancees about how that American guy was so 博爱 and not serious.
  • Joakim Berg Solum
    I can come visit you at your apartment when I get back to Beijing and show up with a big bottle of oil and you will see how attractive I find them...
  • Klisklass Kjærlighet
    Chinese guys are not bad, most of the guys care much for the girls looks. Even an average looking chinese guy dont date average looking girls. So these average looking girls cant get the good looking chinese men and they dont wanna choose some one below average, so they go for foreigners instead, as they cant get the handsome chinese men.

    As far as i have seen most of the beautiful chinese girls have a chinese bf and a lot of foreigners with average looking chinese girls.

    One more thing is, the chinese girls watch a lot of western romantic movies, so they expect that kind of love or affection from her partner. Thats another reason to go for foreigner.

    China have a different culture and the way of showing love is different, just the fact that these girls love the western culture and the way of living.

    I dont know why most of the foreign girls dont date chinese guys, i just think maybe they have a misassumption that chinese guys are bad.
  • Da Fan
    Da Fan wrote:
    Wow...Yuki, I'm so flattered.

    As to this old-aged topic, ahhh...A great portion of Chinese men need to learn how to treat your girl as HUMAN, show your full respect, and do not treat them like some objects you own.

    For the group of Chinese women who got preference to foreign guys, the most important thing is to figure out whether the need of ur foreign bf out of your relationship the same as you need(actually it's applicable to all sort of relationship)

    Some most common advice/FYI I gave out to girls in daily life are:

    1, maybe you preference toward foreign guys is based on the fact that you are a Chinese girl, so you know Chinese men quite well(grown up with them, dated them, maybe deeply hurt by them, etc.), both their merits and demerits, and it's a human nature that ignore what you are enjoying and exaggarate what you are suffering from, then when you find something new you are not so familiar with before, you tend to exaggarate merits of something new and ignore or forget to analyse demerits of such a new stuff. It reminds me of a funny metaphor one of my female friend used: after years of experiences, Chinese women clearly know that they are from Mars, and Chinese men are from Venus, then some of them suddenly find out "wow, there are some foreign guys that are really really different", and feel like they finally find men come from the same planet as where they are. But actually, these men are just someone come from another tribe of the Venus:)

    2, if your goal for a relationship is marriage, umm...I won't give suggetion toward any specific case coz any case needs a case-by-case study, I just provide FYI: statistically, if you are a Chinese woman, the chance you can find a foreign guy in China who's willing to marry a Chinese woman is significantly lower to the level that almost you can neglect. Of coz, there are few foreign guys who's truely willing to find a Chinese girl to get married I know~

    3, ahhhh, hey girl, you rock! if you clearly know what you want, forget all those craps Chinese guys and foreign guys buzz everyday, and enjoy your life ;)

    As for foreign guys, most of them I know are so nice. To a small group of them: get a decent ego please. I hate all men who materialize woman as their small ego booster



    p.s: Jon! get a room! hahah
  • Malin Aaker
    Malin Aaker wrote:
    @Dafan: love your point 1, except I think the book says men are from mars and girls from venus, not the opposite!

    I think it's just that Chinese guys are not used to treat girls the way foreign girls are used to be treated (you get a free beer if you can sort out that sentence (only for the first one though!)).

    If you try to catch butterflies the same way you go deer hunting, your chances of success are quite low!
  • Da Fan
    Da Fan wrote:
    oops, yeah, I should have made it right, girls come from venus for sure, coz they are hotter.

    "I think it's just that Chinese guys are not used to treat girls the way foreign girls are used to be treated " -- I partially agree on this anyway.
  • Da Fan
    Da Fan wrote:
    And...actually, the question, the title of this thread, is a sort of with implication of materializing women, or say, inequality.

    I agree with what 莫明 said before:

    "To clarify some things before we're all crucified, Chinese women, just like most other women and most other men, are usually interested in dating men or women from their own country and race.

    But, Vincent has observed that there are more Chinese women with foreign men than there are foreign women with Chinese men."

    Then, scientifically speaking, the phenomemon is like: there are 100 men and 100 women, 10 men and 10 women are come from abroad. We witness some 5-10 out of 90 local women are or have been with the 10 foreign guys, and almost none out of 90 local men are or have been with the 10 foreign girls. Then, if we want to draw a conclusion, or at least, try to analysis this phenomenon, again, scientifically speaking, there are at least four possibility:

    1, the rate of "some 5-10 out of 90" is more than "normal", then, is foreign guys more attractive in the eye of some Chinese girls?

    2, the rate of "some 5-10 out of 90" is more than "normal", then is Chinese girl/eastern asia girl more attractive in the eye of some foreign guys?

    3, the rate of "almost none" is less than "normal", then is Chinese guy less attractive in the eye of foreign girls?

    4, the rate of "almost none" is less than "normal", then is foreign girls less attractive in the eye of Chinese guys?

    actually it's just a brief combination of possibility, we can sure expand it to 16 possibilities (too boring to list them all...>_<)


    Why I say it's sort of "inequal"? Why I never see some one ever consider the possibility No......4? coz it's not gentle? coz it's rude? NO. The reason are quite obvious: talk about the possibility 4 is not in accordance with what they really need in talking about this. What really matter for them is not to seriously figure out the reason of a social phenomenon, what really matter is, as I said before, MATERIALIZING WOMEN AS THEIR SMAILL EGO BOOSTER~~
  • Minger
    Minger wrote:
    Vincent, you sound very attractive to me. Are you available? I'll add you to my list of candidates for post-relationship-status-and-sexual-orientation-change marriage candidates.

    I also feel obliged to add that most of the decent looking foreign guys who I've seen with Chinese girls have been with relatively good looking ones (or in my own case damn sexy ones), so this stereotype of foreign guys going for ugly Asian girls is just not true [aside: although my girlfriend is hot, she is also a lesbian, so this does me very little good :-(]. The main exception is with old foreign dudes, and by this I mean past 40 or 50, who often stay with the first unattractive 35 yr old who shows interest.



    Jon Gu 写道:"SaSa you know that I'm about as Chinese as a crab Rangoon or sesame chicken..."
    You know that scene in Harold and Kumar Escape from Guantanamo, where the FBI guy is interrogating Harold's parents in Korean? In such fashion, allow me to respond to your claims of not being Chinese in your native language: おれは中国語ぜんぜんわからない。でも、ジョンは英語が話すことができない。Of course I'm only assuming that you were claiming not to be Chinese, because I couldn't understand anything you said.
  • Minger
    Minger wrote:
    Da Fan, I totally agree with your analysis, but I believe I did reference that 4th possibility here:

    "...Of course, there are no shortage of cases where Chinese men can satisfy these requirements for foreign women. However, I don't know why they would specifically choose to be with foreign women, when these guys would also naturally satisfy the requirements of Chinese women as well, and the Chinese women would probably be skinnier, easier to communicate with, and more accepting of the guy fucking around..."

    My friends of Chinese backgrounds who are cool and have the opportunities (live abroad) do date local (ethnically European) women. However they tend to stay with Asian girls longer term for one reason or another.
  • Da Fan
    Da Fan wrote:
    Ahhh...莫明兄, I just proposed some other possibilities, I don't mean that I want to support any of them, esp. the 4th one, coz all women are sensitive, all of them are born to be attractive (ahhh...sexual inequality in my mind too), haha. Just kidding ;)
  • Malin Aaker
    Malin Aaker wrote:
    @Dafan: you only partially agree because you haven't finished sorting out that sentence! No free beer!
  • Rebecca Arnesen
    oh no! Nikkibaby has completely shattered my thin veneer of self-worth. After all that 瞧不起ing I can feel my fantacised social status ebbing away. I'll never be able to stand up proud and look another chinese girl in the eye again. I'm so devastated I've written a poem to commemorate this tragic realization...

    洋垃圾 ,
    thats all I am,
    and ever will be,
    呜呜呜,
    oh woe is me,
    oh woe is me.

  • Da Fan
    Da Fan wrote:
    @Saibo: ahhh...can't get u...well, you get a free beer from me ok, haha
  • Erik Aleksander Aas
    Jon Gu wrote:
    Vincent, I think what we really should be talking about is how mind-numbingly boring many of these foreigner-groupie Chinese girls are. Often times I talk to girls and they seem like they are interested in what I have to say but offer very little in return. Perhaps it's just a language issue that I haven't overcome yet?

    You can say that again bro! At the beginning I thought it is the language barrier but soon realized after meeting more and more of these foreigner-groupies that they have the intelligence/maturity level of a 12 year old teenager!! That's the thing that puts me off most about these women. After five minutes of meeting them you just wanna get out of there! It's so frustrating! You meet the most beautiful women but once they open their mouths you loose all forms of attraction towards them.
    On the other hand you do meet the exceptions. Yet they are so rare or mostly taken that I've almost completely lost my interest in local women. What a disappointment.

    Question. Why are so little women commenting. I mean there is no shortage of Chinese females on WLIB. Would love to hear their opinions.
  • Amalie Sæverud
    Vincent, haven't I already answered you?
    The first class of Chinese girls have already been taken by good Chinese young guys.
    The second class of Chinese girls will choose realy rich Chinese man , for example: bosses, to marry.
    And the normal and realistic girls will marry normal Chinese young guys.

    Only the young and naive grils, who is clearly with their unrealistic dreams, will hook up with your foreign guys. And even rare, mature and independent Chinese women will sleep with you becuase you are more available than local guys.

    Well , that's the mere situations we called truth!
    It seems that the chances for you to date a real good Chinese woman is really limited. Not even you put a "A 6-room mansion" label on your forehead , you will get any chance to be lucky!!!!

    So stop worrying Chinese guys don't get lucky, worry yourself!
  • Malin Aaker
    Malin Aaker wrote:
    What a simplistic and naive vision!
  • Erik Aleksander Aas
    Well OK then Nikkiebaby, thanks for clearing that up! I finally understand why I find it so difficult to get lucky in China... ; )

    Just out of curiosity, which one of your classes of women do you fit into?
  • Amalie Sæverud
    well, i don't want to make a deep and complex vision here, as the discussion is simple and naive at the beginning. it's just a foreigner met with some Chinese girls and based on his limited experience , denying there is any respectable , smart, lovable Chinese woman. When a discussion so sick and sexual discrimination at the beginning, what a complex and deep vison you expected here?
  • Malin Aaker
    Malin Aaker wrote:
    Nikkiebaby, have you read "the best of the worlds" by Aldous Huxley? Your vision of society classes is nearly as disgusting and stupid as what the government advocates in that book.
  • Amalie Sæverud
    I, Nikkiebaby, do solemnly swear that in posting this comment I promise to be nice.

    I can't believe I was baned! :( discuss with you guys later! this is not fair!
  • Rebecca Arnesen
    Nickiebabys four tiered society:

    alpha: First class Chinese. Just, well, awesome(including rich).
    beta: Second class Chinese, not awesome, but still rich
    gamma: Third class Chinese. Not awesome, not rich, but chinese at least.
    delta: Laowai!

    Nikkiebaby for chairwoman!
  • Amalie Sæverud
    :) well, this is funny!

    It's a pain in the ass to type the whole post again! I don't know why i was banned last time! So i will be very careful this time and try to be nicer!

    Well, except society system, could class also be used to the good looking level? When i say first class or second class, i just want to help you to identify the good looking level! I'm sorry if i misslead you in the wrong way!

    And who said I'm advocating for all the girls choices? I just want to explain the true situation here in China, when the good looking and concious girls will easily get the good Chinese boys, they are mostly to be settled and married. And it's also truth, a lot of beautiful Chinese girls will marry really rich guys. They are richman- groupie rather than foreigner-groupie, ok? Of course, there are girls who are foreigner-groupie, who according to your description, i think they are just naive and with unrealistic dreams. I'm not a big fan for either richman-groupie or foreigner-groupie, i classified richman-groupie, just to explain not every girl is foreigner-groupie. OMG, what am I doing here? continue:
    Just don't forget there are the majority of normal traditional Chinese girls, who you may found less interested, but they also have no interests for you!
    And rare as there is , there are mature and independent woman, who will sleep with with foreigners, just because foreigners are more available when random sex is concerned.
    And at last but not least, rare as it is, there are mature and independent woman, who will have romance with either Chinese or foreigners equally when they just regard you as lovely human being! I think it's just not fair to deny there are lovable Chinese girls!
    OMG, I lose my point! whatever it's my stupid and misleading version of 莫名's 100 men and 100 women ratio theory . By classify the girls who are not into foreigners, no matter what reason they have, to prove that there aren't any good choices left for foreigners?!! Well, maybe i use the wrong argument and proof, but who cares? I'm so pissed when this discussion is started with despising Chinese girls! So i just choose the harsh words as much as possible to fight back as I'm the only girl now who depend ourselves! I knew I have droped some blind bombs and properly hurt some innocent good people ! Then I'm sorry! But I'm not going to delete my posts as I'm still angry!
  • Minger
    Minger wrote:
    Hahaha, Nickie, Baby, lighten up ^^

    Honestly I know it's a lot to sort through in reading this nonsense, but this post thread did not start out criticizing Chinese girls at all (I think, I had trouble reading through it all too). Maybe it was critical of Chinese guys, but maybe it was just posing a question based on an observable phenomenon.

    Anyway, I still agree with 莫明's earlier post. I think he summed up this issue perfectly.

    Aside: there was a wonderfully offensive article on this subject posted at Echinacities. In summary (since no one will waste the time to read it) the only foreigners who found Chinese men great for dating were gay dudes. Hey, don't get mad at me, go over there to get mad. I didn't write it.
  • Amalie Sæverud
    No thanks for your offer 莫明! I already regret to get involved into this discussion! I have more important things to do than discuss nonsense! :)
  • Simen Stensvoll
    im not young,but naive
    im not mature,but independent.
    i know some of the first class girls' husbands
    and i also know some rich men's girls,the second class girls
    and i know a lot of normal and realistic girls too
    i can understand what Nikkiebaby s talking about,but i totally disagree
    i can't see any difference among those classes.
    believe it or not, we will be all the same 50 years later.helpless old and lonely
    yes,i sleep with laowai
    because most of young handsome chinese guys are married,and i don't sleep with married men.
    besides, i am kinda autistic ,and it will be strange if i dated chinese but not talk so much.so i feel more comfortable with laowai,i guess.
    i still believe that everyone has his both good and bad sides.it depends on what u want from him.
    it really has nothing to do with someone's nationality,only individual.
    ..
    yes.im kinda sick
    but,don't forget,
    we are all iving in a madly sick world!



  • Amalie Sæverud
    Minimy! why? I think you misunderstand my meaning!

    When I saw some foreigner said :"why Chinese women chase after foreigners (especially my white brothers) like possessed chickens on heat. ", "At the beginning I thought it is the language barrier but soon realized after meeting more and more of these foreigner-groupies that they have the intelligence/maturity level of a 12 year old teenager!! " , I just want to depend ourselves, when I say ourselves, i totally mean you, me and a lot Chinease girls! I think yourself won't like to be looked down upon when at the same time you are sleeping with them! I just want to fight back, so i may used the wrong description or wrong arguements just to let them feel bad!

    But have you seen my statement carefully, I'm only against "richman-groupie" and "foreigner-groupie"!
    As for you, you are clearly independent and knows what you are doing . You are on my advocating list! And clearly you are dating some decent and respectful "laowai", not someone, who sleep with you and then think you are stupid!
    I said" And at last but not least, rare as it is, there are mature and independent woman, who will have romance with either Chinese or foreigners equally when they just regard you as lovely human being!" Come on, Minimy, you can't deny there could also be Chinese guys who can deal with your silence well! all right? So if there is some Chinese guy who is decent and can treat you well, you will sleep with them all right? So logically, you are on my advocating list :)!

    And you are so honest! Double advocating!!!! :)

    And to make you feel comfortable, I will tell you my not sleeping list and sleeping list:
    "1. I don't sleep someone, who think I'm sleeping him for his money, that will including 10% to 15% of the man population from around the world!
    2. I don't sleep someone, who will think me a whore, after they sleep with me, that including at least above 50% Chinese man, and 80% man from Arabic countries with Islam religion, and maybe 15% to 25% population from the rest of the world"
    3. I don't sleep someone, who is likely to make it a public! that includes about 5% to 10% of the whole man population.
    4. guys who are too available!
    "

    :) ok, the rest of the man population as long as they are goodlooking, healthy, fit and funny, respectable,respect woman, are all on my "could sleep with list" no matter what nationality or skin color or religion! :) Ok, too much details! Well, I just want to make you feel good " minimy"! :) guys dont send me messages as always, because it's a "could sleep with list" not a " must sleep with list"!

    And in general, i'm only against guys , who sleep with woman and despise woman! And by doing so, I may use some unproper proof or harsh words to hurt the feeling of some good and decent people! Then I'm sorry! I'm not so good at debating as 莫明 or Dafan do! When I got pissed and angry , i just let it out with whatever harsh words i can think out then!

    And Minimy, if you are really autistic, maybe you need a doctor more than you need a man! You are honest and good as much as I can say! But seeing your name"minimy" , you are minimise yourself, and you really shouldn't! Sorry again!
  • Daniel
    Daniel wrote:
    Ouch, I feel myself getting stupider the more I try to read Nikkie's posts...

    Whilst I tend to avoid the threads that expound broad-generalisations(Why are all _____ like _____), I figured this'd be a good place to post a reply I received for an advertisment I put on a website a female Chinese friend: I bet I could find her a decent guy online so I put up an advertisment and am sifting through the replies, and received this awesome reply from a Chinese guy (I guess! It could be an impersonation):

    f*** you those son of bitchs who are looking for foreign guys. You bring shame to Chinese people and our country wow, sorry we can not recongize you as Chinese people, we think of you as a bitch, f***ed by foreign animal. note that be caraful of HIVs.
    If you have time, pls check some articls of your on internet to see how foreign guys describe Chinese girls, I think most of well-educated, self-respecting girls are good, but expcept the bitchs like you and your friend. you really bring shame to our country.


    Thought this was fantastic! Not least because it assumed I was a Chinese girl/
  • Ikevenson
    Ikevenson wrote:

    Deepauk has it right. NOT to be mean or anything, I have really yet to see any real attractive whiteguy/chinagirl combination. Maybe one in every 30 couple....me and my gf always count those out but with few lucks...

    Only the not prettiest Chinese girls study English hard, or study hard at all....which is kinda sad.. I hope there are more hot couples in general so the race factor could be a less concern for everyone.
  • Malin Aaker
    Malin Aaker wrote:
    @Yanyuan: saw one in the elevator while going back home yesterday! Wow, they were hot (yeah both of them), white dude chinese girl. Would've been awkward to ask for a picture though.

    @Nikkiebaby: so you would not sleep with half of chinese men, but could sleep with more or less 80% of the foreigners! You such a foreigner groupie! ;-)
  • Amalie Sæverud
    @Daniel Godfrey : can't you just read all my posts before you make some shit comment?
    so when a guy said"why Chinese women chase after foreigners (especially my white brothers) like possessed chickens on heat." so he is simplely descriping a phenomenon, the truth? are you blind? you can't see any despise here?
    So when I said" Only the young and naive grils, who is clearly with their unrealistic dreams, will hook up with your foreign guys." and you think I'm a bitch?!!! can't it also be the truth?!! so i offend you?
    I already explained the classes saying is not on society level, ok?!!!
    Don't you think you are a sexaul -discrimination son of bitch? you just didn't realise it yet?

    @ Saibo: I'm not a foreigner groupie, I'm a respectableman-groupie, ok?

  • Simen Stensvoll
    lol,Nikkiebaby
    i need a man just coz i need sex and companion
    i don't expect them to heal my autism la
    anyway,thank u for ur understanding
    i just don't like ur vision of society classes.but i do know its truth.some successful men will marry beautiful smart girls,its reasonable.but some guys marry beautiful girls in order to show his "success",its stupid.
    the society class is the trap that those idiots make for themself.
    women shouldn't be men's ornaments,and men should treat their women nicer.
    i must say some man are quite shallow ,the worse thing is they never ever realise how shallow they might be.
    however i know im superficial enough.but i try to improve myself every single day.i want to satisfy myself with a better me,and hopefully possiblely find some peace inside me someday.
    i don't know how people define"beauty",how people define"happiness"
    but i do know some people they chase beauties,cos others chasing as well...they try to get into the first class
    well ,get back to the topic
    there are nice chinese guys while there are bad chinese guys as well
    i don't know many laowais,and i don't know much about them either
    i believe they are some laowais think that some chinese girls are blindly crush on them as kids crush on monkeys.but is it good if someone crush on u just because of ur color?
    when ur fucking someone u think he/she is fucking stupid,then what u think ur doing?
  • Amalie Sæverud
    :) Minimy, you and I should clap hands!

    And when I say Class, i really don't mean society class, i should really use" level" or "degree" maybe :) ! But you know, it could be also right, even if I really mean society class! :)
  • Erik Aleksander Aas
    Oh Nikkiebaby. Do you live on another planet? Even though I don't agree with most of what you're saying; I gotta admit I love your passion. Don't get so emotional though, it's just a discussion - all done in good spirit!

    Nikkiebaby wrote;
    By classify the girls who are not into foreigners, no matter what reason they have, to prove that there aren't any good choices left for foreigners?!! Well, maybe i use the wrong argument and proof, but who cares? I'm so pissed when this discussion is started with despising Chinese girls!

    If you saying that that there aren't any good choices for foreigners you are wrong. Trust me. Like in any other country, I believe that any man can be with any woman. No matter what his or her social status or how attractive he or she might be. With the danger of sounding arrogant I can honestly say that I've had a great amount of opportunities with local women. And I'm not talking about your average groupie in Sanlitun or Propaganda. I almost never go to these places. I'm talking about successful, beautiful and intelligent local women. Again, that's just me, my experiences. And if you don't believe me, join me for a night out in town - you might enjoy it too.
    I do NOT despise Chinese girls. I despise shallow, narrow minded and immature chicks from any country, race or social status that throw themselves at foreigners. This is not a personal attack on Chinese women! You get it???

    Nikkiebaby wrote;
    I just want to depend ourselves, when I say ourselves, i totally mean you, me and a lot Chinease girls! I think yourself won't like to be looked down upon when at the same time you are sleeping with them! I just want to fight back, so i may used the wrong description or wrong arguements just to let them feel bad!
    As for you, you are clearly independent and knows what you are doing . You are on my advocating list! And clearly you are dating some decent and respectful "laowai", not someone, who sleep with you and then think you are stupid!

    Look at it this way. Is it better to let your fellow women know that their behavior reflects negatively on themselves; or not talk about it and they just continue with their ways? If I wanted to get laid by numerous Chinese women do you think I'd write this. It just shows that I have the best interest of these women at heart. I actually think that they are much better than that, they don't have to behave like this to find a good man. Agree?

    Nikkiebaby wrote;
    And to make you feel comfortable, I will tell you my not sleeping list and sleeping list:
    "1. I don't sleep someone, who think I'm sleeping him for his money, that will including 10% to 15% of the man population from around the world!
    2. I don't sleep someone, who will think me a whore, after they sleep with me, that including at least above 50% Chinese man, and 80% man from Arabic countries with Islam religion, and maybe 15% to 25% population from the rest of the world"
    3. I don't sleep someone, who is likely to make it a public! that includes about 5% to 10% of the whole man population.
    4. guys who are too available!

    According to this, do you ever get laid??

    (continued)
  • Erik Aleksander Aas
    (continued)

    Nikkiebaby wrote;
    But seeing your name"minimy" , you are minimise yourself, and you really shouldn't! Sorry again!

    What about your name, Nikkiebaby. Calling yourself a baby, doesn't that minimize you?? I mean a baby is kinda small.

    Nikkiebaby wrote;
    Well, except society system, could class also be used to the good looking level? When i say first class or second class, i just want to help you to identify the good looking level! I'm sorry if i misslead you in the wrong way!
    And when I say Class, i really don't mean society class, i should really use" level" or "degree" maybe :) ! But you know, it could be also right, even if I really mean society class! :)
    Don't you think you are a sexaul -discrimination son of bitch? you just didn't realise it yet?

    Classifying or judging people on the way they look??? That's the most disgusting form of discrimination ever!! Then you have the audacity to call someone else a sexually discriminating son of a bitch....??? Come on, get real - have a look in the mirror before you judge!

    Cheerio for now, eagerly awaiting your response!
  • Kodi
    Kodi wrote:
    I do not think Chinese guys are bad at all..... I agree with some of the things that NikkieBaby said. Maybe many of the good Chinese men are taken at an early age because of cultural reasons. Romantic relationships are more likely to be forged differently in China as opposed to the socially forged relationships of many foreigners. I know many of the Chinese guys and girls I know met their romantic interest through work, family, college, or other close knit social groups.

    This is only my opinion, but I think it holds some weight. For me I know I can go anywhere and meet women everyday. Not just foreigner groupies, rich girls, farm girls, waitresses, any kind..... No problem! But this is a personality attribute I possess. I can also meet Chinese guys like this too..... I make many friends this way and for many of them I am the first foreigner they have ever developed a friendship with. However, it takes a lot of energy to become real friends with Chinese people who are not accustomed to being around foreigners. There are many things one needs to do in order to become regarded as a true friend. I guess one of my attractive attributes is that I try to understand and become friends with people and not simply view the women as objects of pleasure or just dismiss friendship gestures from Chinese guys.

    The truth is foreigners are not as hot as they think in China. There is a very very small percentage of Chinese women who actually want them simply because they are foreign. It is just that China has so many damn people, so it may seem that way in a huge city like Beijing....
  • Kodi
    Kodi wrote:
    I receive many complements from many people about how hansom I am or how "Man" I am from both men and women, but I hope that is because I am "Me" and not because I am foreign.

    I disagree what Nikkiebaby said about: don't flatter yourself that much! the reason could simply be" you are too available!!!" I found most foreigners on this website: students, teachers, DJ, travellers, event producer? these are not regarded as decent jobs in China!!

    I am a teacher...... I am also doing other things, but I am not rich. Especially not Chinese rich! To be Chinese rich would be great!!!! Fucking damn rich!!!! Whoooo I have friends here that are so damn rich... But anyway I make more money than most Chinese professionals here in Beijing who also cannot afford an apartment these days. What average person can? The price is outrageous! And not worth it anyway... But I think the money says nothing about me as a person. It just says that I play a game well and am able to win more points than some others can. Personality and my white face help me a lot.

    The money does not make the man........ no matter where you are from. I wish I could have bought a house here in 2004 or 2003 when it was 1,500 a square M. I would have bought 5. Most people who own houses in Beijing bought them when the price was very low and now most people other than the rich can afford to buy, so the example Nikkie used is invalid in deciding if a job is good or not in China. If the price was still low I would buy one house a year in Beijing, but that is not the reality of today....
  • Amalie Sæverud
    sorry, Kodi, i actually like your first post! About the second one, I already said sorry a dozen times! I just got pissed, grab some shit and throw back! But obviously, i missed the target and hurt some innocent people. I'm sorry! My aim to hurt the feeling of someone, this is my aim to debate, surely not debate for truth, cause there is no truth in noncense! I don't believe what i say :) , they are just my blind bombs! Isn't that someone do when they are angry! :)
  • ****
    **** wrote:
    once again everyone talks about money! like if it was the only things that matters.
    but beings in higher class means having a lot of money a big car and a big house in China so both chinese men and women are attract to that matters, however for foreigners cultural is more important that's why it's more difficult for foreign women to find chinese guys

    because for foreign woman being with a chinese gys can very though about difference in culture and behaviour.

    before i saw only foreign guys with chinese woman, however mow i start seeing chinese guys with foreign woman which for me is not bad but it'sd just mopre difficult for foreign woman to find theirs chinese match than for foreign men it will eventually get more common it just need more time
  • Trond Råna amundsen
    what the fc is this writte short and exact comment
  • Kodi
    Kodi wrote:
    Hey hey hey I know..... I am sorry Nikkiebaby... I did not mean to make you think I was angry... I think we can disagree in a friendly way. @_@ I will not hold it against you.
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    Foreigners, expats, and exchange students are weird people and defy easy classification.

    Chinese chicks who are into foreigners are even weirder.

    Instead of making sweeping generalizations, some of you could send me a PM telling me some specific stories about your cross-cultural dating experiences so I can produce some content for Chinese Chick, White Guy.
  • Saina
    Saina wrote:
    umm, fierce debate here....

    I'm a Chinese (only half Chinese blood but grew up all in China) girl and I of course had Chinese bfs before, I also went out with several foreign guys when I was in Europe, in singapore and here,so I'm able to tell u some difference, but it's just my personal experience and plz note that every woman is different, even those who keep chasing foreign trash might have different reasons, so I'm just sharing the feelings of myself and other Chinese girls I've discussed about this topic with, while it's still a big pool, as dating foreigners has been kind of fashion and girls love fashion, especially when its mixed with gossips....

    I was graduated from a 1st tier uni and have a have a stable job now, I would say 90% of girls around me (my female acquaintances, friends, former and current colleagues) never dated any foreigner and probably never will, the No.1 reason is FOREIGNERS ARE NOT RELIABLE (bukaopu, even those who dated or dating foreigners agree with this point) the other reason is that they feel uncomfortable to speak the sweet nothings IN ENGLISH to a very different looking face.

    It is about some traits of Chinese women: comparing with western girls we are more realistic (or u call it materialized, whatever) , we want to be take good care of and have a stable, intimate relationship leading to marriage and well-off future, considering that having relationship is not persuaded in middle or high school, and pressure to get married come from parents right after we start to work, we don't have the time and mood to fool around with foreign guys, most of whom just stay here for several years and not interested to enter a serious relationship with Chinese a girl. So it's not like all th Chinese girls are dying to have a foreign bf, most wouldn't, be sure about this.

    And it comes to those who are open to foreign guys, it's quite complicated, among the girls that I know, some met that foreign guy abroad, some r a bit over aged for Chinese men, some like big dicks, some want to improve their foreign language, some think it's more fun to talk with foreign guys, some have special taste to eye color or accent, but very few of us date foreign guys for money: yes some of u might be richer than Chinese guys but very very few of u would spend money on ur girl friend like Chinese guys do. Ur money is just ur money. I never saw a foreigner shopping with a Chinese girl and pay for everything she wants to buy, but it's a must in typical Chinese dating: The guy is to pay for everything, from dinner to sanitary napkin.

    The sensative thing is nationality: I admit that our gvmt makes our nationality particularly unattractive, I'm proud to be a Chinese and I love my country and my ppl, but I really, really can't fall in love with my passport and Hukou. If I have the lot of money like all the invest immigrants from China it would be good to change one, but through marriage....it's not very nice to be dispised by ur own husband right? Chinese women r too famous for this trick that I believe every foreign guy dating Chinese girl would secretly suspect her motive for at least once. But succesful stories like 杨二车娜姆 r still tempting, especially for some ambitious girls originally from not especially rich families in 2nd or 3rd tier cities, when u have a very big need to change ur life but the ways r so limited, it worths trying.

    And some of Chinese girls r so eager to improve their english level / "international" image/ nationality that they seize every oppertunity to grab a foreign guy with all means...that's what u see. Believe me we girls feel sicker than u seeing them, and Chinese men r so furious that they even start to swear all girls dating foreigners...and it becomes kind of shame to tell my normal girl friends that I'm having a foreign boyfriend, I need to be reallly really into a foreign guy to take him to my friends or parents, so far I never did.

    Above is t
  • Saina
    Saina wrote:
    Above is the girl part. and let me start talking about guys.

    I noticed the topic of this discussion is whether Chinese guys r that bad, so I'll start with them: yes there r lots and lots and lots of and even more and more Chinese men going to prostitutions and having Ernai or mistresses, but still, a big precentage of Chinese men, especially young men, r very good and much better than foreigners, if u r talking about how they treat their gfs. They r very patient, take very good care of the girls, willing to solve whatever problem she has, cook for her, pay all the bills during dates, try best to keep a good relation with the girl's family members and friends, and work hard to give her a good future. But the yhave their own problems, too: the one I feel worst about is that they tend to take girls as some silly, clumsy,innocent, thoughtless and absolutly dependent creature: they treat gfs like a pet, feed her, buy cloth for her, pat her, accompany her, take her to hospital, show her off to friends, but never think of discussing serious topic with her, and always want to teach her how to do things. The other problem is that their taste to women is quite monotonous: slim, fair skin, wide eyes, innocent, young, virgin = perfect.

    Foreign guys: U know urself better than me and I'm really tired of writting now. just tell u a normal Chinese gir's impression.

    Foreign guys outside China and in China seems to be two different species. As we r talking about foreign guys here, I would say at least 70% of them r kind of trashy, typically looks a bit drunk, dumb, wearing Xiushui stuff, and keep expressing his love to Chinese culture when he meets a pretty girl. a Chinese girl with good taste wouldn't date them at all: but we r told to save others' face so even if we r not interested in u we would try to look nice, unfortunately it makes them think they r welcomed here. And they really r welcomed by some of the girls I mentioned above.

    The decent ones: they r nice, clean, polite, well-off, have good women skill, do housework and fun to be with, if would be enjoyable to marry them,but they almost never think of getting married here, but they also think Chinese girls r sweet and understanding, so they would date them, and sometimes end up marrying one that is not inferior to any westernwomen. But they r never going to show off his salary and disapproval of others in public like Vincent.
  • A豆腐
    A豆腐 wrote:
    Is so nice see how some persons are proud of follow the ¨nature¨ like the animals, but in other level, in a creepy cultural level: my destiny in the life is have a baby, pure and simple reproduction, and obtain a good conditions for this objetive. Animals have some preferences and humans the same in other level, strong in the animal kingdom, money in the human kingdom.

    But the most stupid thing is use - cultural differences- for call this way of understand the life. where is the difference? my country has a lot of ..... these realistic persons,
    where is the original thing in this? read a novel of S.XIX, like -David Copperfield-.
    Do not convert stupid behaviours in a national pride.

    This thing is shit very old, it gave birth in the same time that prostitution in the humankind

    Only one life, and too short for be playing to be refined animals.

  • Da Fan
    Da Fan wrote:
    Very impressive entry, Sai Na, quite a sum-up from a Chinese girl's perspective. I agree some of what you said, especially:

    1, "And some of Chinese girls r so eager to improve their english level / "international" image/ nationality that they seize every oppertunity to grab a foreign guy with all means..."

    Yeah, I also do not think money is the main concern for girls who like to date foreigners, that's true. I feel reluctant to say this before, but as Sai Na said it out, yeah, as far as I see, this is the main reason for now, esp. to gain some "international image" or to catch up a so-called "trend" in their mind. Maybe it will hurt somebody's feeling, but...sigh...OK, here is the fact: even 2nd tier cities in China are too far behind mega cities like HK, Shanghai, Beijing in ALL sides, (I don't want to list all "mega cities", but, I'm quite sure it's enough to count them with your two hands, even one hands), especially the side of "fashion", or culture, vision, insight, exposure to world trend, or whatever you name it. Ppl are so fanatic to those mega cities, and they are so afraid of fall behind, but, err...actually they already fall behind from the very beginning, so...(boring psycho analysis...)

    2, it's good to date foreigners if you think he's fun and you really enjoy yourself in the relationship no matter which kind of relationship it is, like serious, companionship, fuck buddy, fool around, ons, go for it. HOWEVER, if you want certain FINANCIAL BENEFIT out of this, or your goal is to GET MARRIED eventually, no matter which foreigner you date with, trashy, just-so-so, or superb, STATISTICALLY, forget it~ (personal ad.: Kodi is an exception, go to him! haha)

    3, "plz note that every woman is different, even those who keep chasing foreign trash might have different reasons"

    totally agree, we need to be extreamly careful to avoid generalization of sth.
  • Erik Aleksander Aas
    @Sai Na;

    Love your post. It really makes a lot of behavior patterns of the locals I have met much clearer. As I've said right at the beginning of my post, these are my experiences and I stand to be corrected and you've done exactly that. Your post gives me a lot more insight on the matter, thus the next time I'd definitely look at things differently.

    Sai Na wrote;
    But they r never going to show off his salary and disapproval of others in public like Vincent.

    Have to make it clear that I did not show off my wealth (which is still nothing compared to many Chinese tycoons) by choice. But when someone makes assumptions (me being a struggling foreigner trying to make a living in BJ) about you and insults you in a public forum, you naturally would instinctively defend yourself. At the time I thought clarifying that her assumptions are wrong by stating the opposite was the right thing to do. I might have been wrong. If you'd have known me personally you'd definitely have known that I am NOT the type of person that would do that. And in a society that primarily judges people on how much money they earn, what's wrong with flashing a bit now and then?
    On the other matter. This is a forum where everyday social matters are discussed openly. I come from a society (and my parents also bestowed this upon me) that if you disapprove of something you speak/talk about it. Keeping it to yourself just makes matters worse. I have learned a lot from responses on this thread. Things I would never have known if I did not raise the question.

    Thanks again for your insightful post, you seem like an intelligent woman with firm values. Take care.
  • Minger
    Minger wrote:
    Sai Na,
    Thank you for sharing that. Very insightful.
    Now, I and my plants are going to kill some zombies...
  • Obi132@yahoo.com
    am a black man am happy to be a black. what ever chinese peoplething we are.
  • Daniel
    Daniel wrote:
    @Nikkiebaby: I tend to stop reading things when they depress me that someone can actually think in such a small-minded, narrow way. You do that within a few sentences! So you wish I'd read all of your posts!

  • Amalie Sæverud
    @ Daniel: sorry! don't take it too serious! I don't believe what I just said, take care!
  • Erik Aleksander Aas
    Nikkiebaby , you're such a foreigner-groupie....hahaha!
  • Amalie Sæverud
    @Vincent: you just keep thinking what you believe, no matter what i said? you don't understand what strategy I'm using here? By forgiving him first, and play cool, i want him to realise who is the one that really narrow-minded and not polite! so I'm still a foreigner-groupie no matter what strategy I use or what my true meaning is? I kinda understand why you posted the post in the first place! you keep thinking every Chinese girl is foreigner-groupie, no matter what they do! haha!
  • Erik Aleksander Aas
    Nikkie, baby,,, that is so untrue. I am just pulling your leg. I actually think you're quite a cool chick. It it wasn't for you this thread would've been sooooo boring! I'd say less than 1% of Chinese chicks are foreigner groupies. And that definitely does not include you. Love your passion for debating!
    Take care.
  • Amalie Sæverud
    No No No, Vincent, don't give up so soon! I'm actually enjoying my time here! haha! Anything else you want to debate? you want me to answer your questions up there? :) because it will be so easy!
  • Minger
    Minger wrote:
    I'm a foreigner groupie...
  • Saina
    Saina wrote:
    Da Fan wrote: it's good to date foreigners if you think he's fun and you really enjoy yourself in the relationship no matter which kind of relationship it is, like serious, companionship, fuck buddy, fool around, ons, go for it. HOWEVER, if you want certain FINANCIAL BENEFIT out of this, or your goal is to GET MARRIED eventually, no matter which foreigner you date with, trashy, just-so-so, or superb, STATISTICALLY, forget it~

    Umm, Can't say many girls, especially Chinese girls enjoy sex partnership or ons or fooling around, it happens mostly as drunk slip or pass-time, while I agree that girls shouldn't regard foreigners as milch cow, but marriage....it is our default mode to relate serious relationship to marriage, no matter with Chinese guys or Foreign guys, if a girl really loves a guy she would want to spend the rest of life and have children with him, and in China it has to be realized through marriage: living together but not to get married is not yet socially allowed and legally guranteed. Also, if a girl dates a foreigner but secretly plans to dump him after some time and get married with a Chinese guy, will u call it a serious relationship?

    I personally think foreigners don't need to be that revolted at the nationality part: nationality isn't like money: u won't lose it even if u get married to and divorce 20 women one by one and give them all ur nationality , for those who r not rich (or going to become rich) or phsically attractive or charming enough, u could marry a better girl here than back in ur own country. Even if she divorces u after several years when she gets the green card u still have had someone cook for u and take care of u and sleep with u for several year for free at no significant expense, good deal.

    Vincent thank u for the good words, glad that my post could help someone to better understand Chinese ppl. Although there many foreigners here nowadays, good communication is still badly needed, it's always hard to accept and and follow others' way of thinking, I saw in ur profile that u r in urgent need to change ur single status, considering that most girls here r Chinese it's quite useful for u to better understand our mind ; P

    But I could hardly think of other words than showing off when I saw they way u explained her that u r not struggling ur life here, think if ur confident enough u could simply say that u r not and u have a quite decent salary...but giving away all the details of ur payment schedule and luxurious house makes it sounds particularly like those personal ads on the matchmaking section on Chinese newspaper, except that u did not list the brand of ur car but declared ur aeronautical background....well yes flashing in a society that primarily judges people on money does get u benefits, like attracting many gold diggers and playgirls (think those girls who saw ur tatements have added u as friends already), u r absolutely free to enjoy it but hope u won't base ur estimation of Chinese girls on them...like u probably already had.
  • Daniel
    Daniel wrote:
    Being an ESL Teacher is not a decent job. I don't really think any job can be called decent when it's available to any idiot who was lucky enough to be born in an English-speaking country. The reality is that it's probably harder to get a job in Mcdonalds than it is for an English-speaker to get a job at a language institute in China.

    That's not to say you can't make money from it. But money/demand doesn't equal decent, which is why drugs and prostitution are not considered decent professions.
  • Minger
    Minger wrote:
    Astar, not to look down on language teachers, but the evaluation as a profession is I presume based on income since this is China after all.
    English language teachers typically make between 150 and 250 an hour, with full time teachers in good universities still not making more than 30,000 per month. This is plenty to live on for a "middle class" life in Beijing, but it will never put someone at the housing investment tycoon level that those "first level" girls are looking to invest in. Just being better than the majority won't get very far here.
    If you like your job though, awesome profession. Also, you get to bang students :-D
  • Undermoonlight
    I think the man's got a point...Some Chinese girls' behaviors and 'conducts' in front of froeigners are really disgusting--It is a fact...And he actually didn't mean to look down upon chinese men, but just say things through another angle...well, there are always indecencies about any nation, and it seems that we have to live with those...
    PS: I personally don't oppose any type of Chinese-foreigner relationships...becuase I myself is a 'practitioner' of this sort--my wife is a Macao-born Portuguese...
  • Joakim Berg Solum
    Sai Na, interesting ideas you present.

    Regarding Chinese males being expected to pay for everything from clothes to purses to food and them treating their girlfriends as basically toys and possessions, I tend to think that many girls like it this way. They like being pampered and spoiled like a little baby, and many people from our generation are used to this from their parents anyways, being the only child. How are we as men supposed to take a girl who has this kind of attitude seriously?

    Women gotta figure out what they want from us. If you want us to take you out, pay for everything, come up with all these romantic ideas, and do all the seduction and all the work in bed too, well, I'm sorry but you are allowing yourself to turn into a second class citizen. Why shouldn't your boyfriend treat you like he owns you? He basically does. If you like it and you don't want to work and just enjoy being taken care of, you've chosen your life and you will only get as much respect as you deserve.

    On the other hand, I feel that there is no reason any woman with higher education and a decent job should act like this or allow a man to treat her in this way. You have your financial and personal independence, why would you waste it by letting a man pamper you? I know it's nice to be spoiled sometimes but you can't ask for equal social status and still be a little princess. I'm not saying that your man should never "treat you like a woman" but you better be prepared to pamper your man too, and I don't just mean sexually or in the kitchen. If you want respect and equality, don't go around perpetuating any gender parity.

    As far as home-makers and stay at home moms... I begrudgingly admit that taking care of a household with children is a tough job. But it isn't exactly an intellectual job either. So when your man doesn't discuss politics and economics with you, he probably doesn't think you are smart enough.



    About your 70% foreign trash principle... I tend to agree with you on this one. Hell, you can come to China with nothing but a white face and get a job and plenty of opportunities to be around young and attractive women. There are bound to be plenty of sexpats here, whether they are old perverts or young losers.

    I consider myself to be somewhere in between.



    And lastly... as far as this? "Can't say many girls, especially Chinese girls enjoy sex partnership or ons or fooling around."

    Why not? I don't understand why women don't enjoy this kind relationship as much as men. I know there are plenty of girls who do just like to have casual sex partners but it's such a source of stigma. That's too bad. Just makes it harder for a girl to go have a good time when she feels like it.
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    Astaroth,
    I'm here. I was begging for anecdotes upstairs.

    Gu,
    A young pervert, then? Ding.

    Daniel,
    I'll bet the engineers said the same thing about you when you were studying literature. Way to grease the karmic gears, you elitist dick.

    So what if demand exceeds supply? They're still educators, and they're still helping people bridge the language gap.

    ...

    I really don't think Chinese girls really date foreigners because of anything wrong with Chinese guys. Even when Chinese girls talk shit about Chinese guys, I take it with a grain of salt. Just like when I hear old western men complaining about how feminism and women's lib have spoiled women in their home countries.

    It's also quite unfair to say that foreigners are unreliable. Most of you don't know what real Westerners are like, because you've only met the ones crazy enough to go abroad. We're expats and travellers. Most of us have a 人生计划, too. And it usually doesn't involve fully assimilating into Chinese culture.
  • Minger
    Minger wrote:
    Jon, totally fuckin' right. Any girl who's trying to find someone to buy her is inadvertently finding someone to own her. But hell, it's not like these girls are then surprised that their husbands are banging other chicks. Why would someone be loyal to a possession?
  • Daniel
    Daniel wrote:
    Dando: You're right, I'm sure you're a master of "repeat after me".


  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    Daniel,
    That stings, but only because it's the sort of shit I have to clean up after. Getting students to activate what they know after they've been routinely drilled by their Chinese instructors for years is like pulling teeth.

    You're right that ESL teachers don't need a lot of training. In fact, the guys who come in with their English degrees thinking they've got an advantage because their grammar is tight actually end up failing hard because they can't come to terms with the fact that learning a second language is nothing like learning a first language. I can copy edit like the motherfucking fist of the north star, but it rarely helps in this line of work.

    It's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it.
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    Daniel,
    BTW

    You're right. I'm sure you're a master of "repeat after me".

    Fix'd
  • Ikevenson
    Ikevenson wrote:
    to EVERYONE: Okay is it me or do RUSSIAN girls just LOVE Black men????
    hahahhaa good for them though, :)
  • Simen Stensvoll
    no body wants to chase trash ..but whrn u are surrounded by nothing,but all trash(yellow,white,black),u know,its hard to make a smart choice,i guess
  • Da Fan
    Da Fan wrote:
    Jon, totally fuckin' right. Some Chinese girls really enjoy being spoiled while complaining the price of unconditionally being spoiled - being materialized. I said this before, that many Chinese guys really sucks that they treat their girls as their possession. However, it's not only their fault.
  • Daniel
    Daniel wrote:
    Dando,
    You're going to focus on a comma-splice after a sentence like 'I really don't think Chinese girls really date foreigners because of anything wrong with Chinese guys'? Really? I mean, really really? ;)

    (And, by the way, one of the reasons why people find it retarded to be a grammar-hawk in communicative-mediums like online messaging is that people write in a dialogic fashion when using these mediums and the majority of spoken English is filled with grammatical mistakes that have very little bearing on the intended meaning. And if the meaning is still intact, you look very petty doing it!)


    Getting students to activate what they know after they've been routinely drilled by their Chinese instructors for years is like pulling teeth.


    So what you're saying is: it's difficult to get students to speak English. That definitely pushes it up on the 'respectable job' scale!

    I have no problem with ESL per se, and I don't put myself very far away from the same status just because I teach literature here.The reality is that it wasn't that much harder than getting a normal ESL job. But these jobs are not hard to get, irrespective of what you put in to them. There are still people that can drop out of high-school, get a tourist visa to China and become an ESL teacher with the same duties and pay as you. And if we go back to the original context of how 'decent job' was used, I hardly think something that easy to get is going to make many girls excited at the prospect of securing you.
  • Amalie Sæverud
    teacher is absolutely most honored job! the one the only greatest people in Chinese history is Confucius, and he is a teacher! see? I said i don't believe what i said!

    And student is not a job, and I have been a student too, and I think everyone in his life must at least once be a student, so how can i despise that?

    And DJ or anything else i said? Am I joking? yeah, i 'm joking , i would die for such chance to stand behind the fancy instrument , stage and play even for one day! :)

    see? The discussion is under a dramatic atomosphere even it seems a little bit war at first!
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    Daniel,
    The plural of medium is media. Not mediums. And they're all used for communication, so qualifying them as communicative is superfluous. Petty? Yeah. But you certainly asked for it. Until you started being modest about your own gig. Sorry, mate. I was just taking the piss. Really. For really reals. Not for fakey fakes.

    As far as Chinese girls are concerned, a decent job is one that pays the bills, and native-speaking ESL teachers are still paid better than most of the locals, and sometimes better than professional journalists.

    Plus we've got awesome job security just because of how difficult it is to get Chinese people to activate on their own. Decent chicks can appreciate that. Am I butthurt that there are less qualified people making more money, who aren't strapped with student loan debt? Only a little. But I've met enough of them who're better teacher than me, so it's not that big of a deal.

    Anyway, simply being an educator still affords a person some modest status, and who needs to impress 'many' girls? Impressing a few is usually more than enough.
  • 哎呀
    哎呀 wrote:
    Jon, I agree with you. If Chinese girls prefer "the guy is to pay for everything, from dinner to sanitary napkin" , then I don't think those girls have rights to complain guys "treat gfs like a pet, feed her, buy cloth for her, pat her, accompany her, take her to hospital, show her off to friends, but never think of discussing serious topic with her, and always want to teach her how to do things." Because those girls are actually like pets purchased by Chinese guys. They are "the things" not "the people" in Chinese guys' eyes.

    -----------

    By the way, "English teacher" is not regarded as a decent job in China. Daniel's already mentioned the reason.
  • A豆腐
    A豆腐 wrote:
    China has had a problem with the job of teacher in the decade of 1960 and in the end of 1980.
    Is a fact, that the most of the parents of a chinese girl between 20-30 years old, have in their mind the job of teacher associated social convulsions.
    dad and mom in 文化大革命
    dad and mom twenty years ago....

  • Simen Wangberg
    "I can copy edit like the motherfucking fist of the north star..."

    I should've had this printed on my business card. To the profile it goes, then.
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    Maria,
    It's not like Chinese girls cream their panties when I tell them I help rich kids who fucked up their college entrance exams to prepare to study abroad. No, it's not a sexy job. But the patient few who give this guy a chance can understand that I've got scarcely any stress and lax hours, which makes for plenty of quality time to spend at home with decent non-materialistic women. Beats working nine to five. Honest chicks do in fact dig that.

    Besides, I've got plenty of opportunities to flirt with the lonely housewives of rich assholes who're too busy to spend time with them. So what if a couple of snobs on the Internet don't think teaching is honest work? I don't give a fuck what you say, you don't speak for all of China! On the contrary, the excess demand Daniel mentioned actually speaks volumes for how sorely we are needed here. You can't argue with that.
  • 哎呀
    哎呀 wrote:
    "I don't give a fuck what you say"

    Dando, If you don't give a fuck what I say, you wouldn't write that long post to respond.

    Anyway, of course I don't speak for all of China, sorry if being honest offends you.
  • Joakim Berg Solum
    Education is a hard and thankless job wherever you go. I've got tons of respect for the teachers who motivated me throughout high school and college. They weren't exactly backpacking tourists looking to pick up some cash though and they took their teaching seriously.

    Just because a few (a lot of) people get hired by shit companies who only care about their racial image doesn't mean that the whole crop of ESL teachers in China is bad or only came here because they couldn't make it back home. I've spoken to at least one or two who actually care about providing quality education to the best of their ability.
  • 随便叫兽
  • 哎呀
    哎呀 wrote:
    China has a tradition to respect teachers. No doubt with that.

    But foreign English teachers are exception. Many of them (note, not all of them) have low education and couldn't find a nice job back to their home countries. They come to China, teaching oral English, flirt and bang their students. How could those kind of trash earn respect from Chinese people? Do they have any moral value about " what is a teacher"?

    Those trash totally ruin the reputation of the whole " English teacher" industry.

    If you are those English teachers who's confident and satisfied with your job, I think you wouldn't care about my words at all.:-)
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    Maria,
    By the way, "English teacher" is not regarded as a decent job in China.

    Certainly doesn't look like your honest opinion.

    I just needed something to do during my office hours. It's Monday. No students until 6:30 tonight. I do indeed have the time to take take the piss out of someone for saying something ignorant.
  • Joakim Berg Solum
    Well shit Maria... I'm definitely in the wrong field. I was hoping to find decent work as a software engineer or doing some sort of IT project management in Beijing while studying for my Masters, but "teaching" and banging dumb 19 year olds who didn't pay attention on their college entrance exams sound sooooo much better. What was I thinking? I guess I can still do that on the side...
  • 哎呀
    哎呀 wrote:
    Dando, I am honest and I know exactly my honesty will probably offend many people of this forum, especially you;-)

    That's just my personal observation, and indeed it could be totally ignorant in some English teachers'eyes.
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    Maria,
    I'm educated, but I did indeed come here partly because my job options at home were limited. Newspapers across the country are closing and consolidating. Michigan's economy in particular is among the worst in the US. I have to admit that the ease of getting an ESL job is one of the things that brought me to Beijing, but I don't have any regrets, 'cuz I've learned a helluva lot since I came here.

    Now you're just being a classist as you parade out the same tired stereotypes about my chosen profession. Keep 'em coming, sister. You've got more face to lose than I do.
  • 哎呀
    哎呀 wrote:
    classist? maybe. I do look down on those trash English teachers who know nothing about teaching but thinking about sleeping with their students all day.

    I lose my face? I think someone who uses "plenty of opportunities to flirt with the lonely housewives of rich assholes who're too busy to spend time with them." under the disguise of "English teacher" should LOSE FACE more!
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    Maria,
    tut, tut. There's nothing honest about quoting someone out of context.

    I said I've got opportunities. I didn't say I used or exploited those opportunities. Perhaps you could use some VIP tutoring in reading comprehension. My schedule is pretty open during the week. The first one's free.

    If I had any face, maybe I would lose it. But seeing as no one in China regards English teaching as a decent job, it would appear as though I've got nothing to lose.

    U MAD.
  • Amalie Sæverud
    why don't we save some energy and do something really funny? Dando, as you sure have a bunch of time to waste, why don't you try to comment under every thread on the forum front page, so I can save a great screenshot of your hilarious head in front of every thread? It will be awesome! ;P
  • 哎呀
    哎呀 wrote:
    So glad you didn't exploit those opportunities, not sure why you mention it in the first place if you never try to use those chances?

    You can't force Chinese people to respect them just because they are English teachers. Everyone in this industry including you should bear in mind that you earn the respect from what you behave.

    My words are just a reminder for those trash teachers. You know who you are!
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    Maria,
    I was talking about how happy I am that I don't have a normal job that would stress me out or keep me from spending quality time at home with nice Chinese girls who don't look at my career choice as disgraceful. Why are you being so shrill? Did an English teacher break your heart or something?

    If you think the ones in Beijing are bad, you should check out the ESL teachers in Thailand. I ended up in Bangkok for 4 months because of how pricey visas got during the '08 Olympics. Yikes, talk about sexpat divorcees and hippy backpackers. Bangkok's ESL teachers make Beijing's ESL teachers look like boddhisatvas.

    Nikkiebaby,
    My head? You mean my white trash Jesus avatar? It's not quite funny enough to spam every thread. But thanks anyway :P
  • Amalie Sæverud
    yeah, not funny enough for you, but it will be funny for me to watch, sorry, i just want to satisfy my weird curiosity
  • 哎呀
    哎呀 wrote:
    Ok, we trust you, you are a very decent English teacher, never fool around with your students.

    "Why are you being so shrill? Did an English teacher break your heart or something?"

    Am I too shrill? sorry if I am. But Mr. Dando, are you that nice when discussing this topic with me?:-)

    Do I have to be heart-broken by an English teacher to make those comments? What's your logic as a teacher?


  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    Maria,
    Eh? I never said I was a good teacher. I was pretty serious about not having any face, y'know. And I have fooled around with a student before. My excuse: she started it, and I was careful to keep my distance until after my duties as an instructor had come to an end.

    What I try to avoid is showing favoritism by rewarding students with grades they don't deserve. And deflowering virgins. And girls who say "no" when they mean "yes". That schoolgirl shit doesn't excite me very much.

    Should I be nice? You called my colleagues trash. I have a responsibility to respond incisively.

    Should we make a separate thread for this?


    Nikkiebaby,
    I just started a thread about PSP games. It's not funny, though. I'm only funny when I'm paid to clown around in front of a classroom.
  • Daniel
    Daniel wrote:
    Dando : Ouch! (And the plural for teacher you were looking for is teachers! High-five!)

    Were you gang-raped by an angry group of middle-aged men outside one of your classes or sometihng? The problem is you're being way too defensive and subjective about this issue: it's not about you and your experiences as a heavenly educator skipping through this valley of many-coloured grass, neither is it about the big, bad English-major graduates or the middle-class looking down on you. It's about the general perception of the profession, not about your colleagues or this guy you knew who was, truly, the Gandhi of the ESL world.


    So we're talking generally(which is dangerous, but let's live a little here) and I think it'd be safe to say that most Chinese people do not have access to dozens of foreign teachers with which they can (do unspeakable things to) engage with in order to form a fair and accurate portrayal. One thing that would colour their impressions is the wide-spread knowledge that these teachers do not neet to be certified, and can essentially come here irrespective of their education and their situation.

    This is what I took the original point to be and what Maria is saying: there are, of course, good teachers who are not certified and take their job seriously. And our jobs are financially stable and comfortable: I'm ridiculously happy with my situation, my income and my workload. But I wouldn't expect Chinese people to think my job is 'decent' just because of things like income or workload because I could quite as easily do my job with no formal education and spend my classes reading through a book and talking about sex, and I'd still be in demand. I don't really see how you could sell this to people, who have met at most one foreigner in their life, as a decent job.

  • Klisklass Kjærlighet
    To my personal experience, i would say many chinese girls who go for foreigners are not reliable either, not just blame the foreigners.

    I'm talking about the chinese girls who go for young foreign guys. I even have a doubt what does love mean to some chinese girls or atleast the chinese girls i have met in England and in Beijing.

    They know their parents will disagree to marry a foreigner or having a relationship with a foreigner. But they still have relationship with foreigners knowing they cant marry him or having him for a long time. How can the foreigners be serious about relationship with a chinese girl knowing she will leave him someday. I have no idea what kind of relationship they expect from a foreigner.

    "curiosity kills the cat" thats what many chinese girls who go for foreigners experience. Foreigners appretiate many things in chinese girls which chinese guys dont. So they asssume he is interested in them and wanna know more and more and finally end up in having sex with him.

    There is a big difference between likeness and love. I think for most of the chinese girls its the same.Many foreigners likes chinese girl not really love them, so there is no point blaming them. I hate the guys who loves just for sex though.

  • Klisklass Kjærlighet
    Many girls know exactly they cant have a long term relationship with a foreigner, but they still go for them, so there is no point worrying or blaming the foreigners when they lose them. Many chinese girls who study abroad has a foreigner bf and cheat their bf back home. I have seen so many girls making the chinese guys wait for them just to secure themselves when the lose the current bf.

    Many foreigners even dont feel secured about chinese girls, so no point in loving and getting hurt later. Its becasue of the experiences they had before with chinese girls.

    So from an outer look foreigners look bad but if u take a closer look they are not as bad as people think.
  • 哎呀
    哎呀 wrote:
    Peter, I know you are the type of guy who would like to find any logic fallacy instead of focusing the whole point? :-)

    If you really think about that, some trash English teachers do know some skills of teaching, and they don’t think sleeping with their students in 24 hours.

    My bad to use extreme sentence.
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    Daniel,
    Nitpick typographical error
    Rape joke
    ?????
    Accuse Dando of taking things personally.

    Song Shanmu raped an employee. Heard anyone calling ESL school administrators "trash"? Isn't it their responsibility to make sure their teachers are certified?

    You're complaining about institutional problems and saying it's okay to blame it on the hapless fools at the bottom of the hierarchy. Way to go, tough guy. Way to hold the teachers accountable. This is some No Child Left Behind shit right here. Where were you during George W. Bush's tenure?
  • 哎呀
    哎呀 wrote:
    Peter, I've met those " foreign trash teachers" and I also heard of them from my friends and media. They do exist and they do damage the reputation of this industry.

    It's not about "maintaining anger toward these foreign invaders and to invent myths and rumors about them". You just try to exaggerate this matter. It's just stating a phenomenon.

  • 哎呀
    哎呀 wrote:
    Peter, I'm not intending to cause the hatred. It's just what I feel about this whole industry in current China.

    But I guess you are right, I shouldn't use that term "foreign trash teacher" to describe a small portion of English teachers in public forum, although I do think they deserve that title in my heart.
  • 哎呀
    哎呀 wrote:
    "You feel that way about the whole industry???"

    Maybe I didn't make it clear. "I feel that way about the whole industry" means I don't think Chinese regard "foreign English teacher" as a decent job. The main reasons have already said by Daniel and added with some "resent words" by me.

    But it's just my observation. Many people have the right to disagree.

    Recently, have met an English guy. mid-forty, divorced, did factory job in England. In order to come to China to work in an office building, he tried to pick up an undergraduate course and graduated last year. When I had dinner with him and his sister, he didn't ask me anything about China or his future job, he just constantly asked me :" I heard of Chinese girls like blond hair and blue eye. My hair is brown, do you think I should dye it to blond?"

    And to be honest, he's one of the most stupid guy I've ever met. And he was hired by English First in Shanghai.

    I don't need to state those experiece and stories one by one here, I do think he's in the realm of my definition of FTT.

    They do exist, maybe you are lucky not to meet them.
  • Minger
    Minger wrote:
    Uhm...


    ...this is fucking stupid.


    Let's take the blame away from the teachers for a moment. When I post a "job wanted" ad on the expat websites, and specify that I have no interest in any work related to teaching English, and am not an English teacher, I get about 10 calls a day from "English Schools".
    First, they tell me they're a school, and I tell them that I mentioned in the ad that I'm not a teacher and have no interest in English teaching work. They then respond that I'm so handsome and that my Chinese is so good or my voice sounds so nice and I would do great as an English teacher. I maintain that I'm not qualified to be a teacher and thanks but I'm not interested. They then suggest that they don't really want qualified teachers anyway, because teachers have "so many conditions", and that I should do it short term until I get work doing what I'm looking for.
    Typically they won't stop bothering me until I tell them my salary requirements. One of these days I'm just maybe going to take their 200 RMB to whore myself out to one of their students for an hour.

    So yeah, maybe a lot of the English teachers aren't great, but those filthy schools are worse. Definitely it's not a respected profession compared to any of those careers that let you buy 二奶, but it is respected compared to most people's professions of building junk buildings, planting rice, and peddling vegetables. Also, whether or not the profession is respected, one can certainly have respect for the good teachers (English subject or otherwise), that helped them learn in school. As someone said above, I've got a helluva lot of respect for those good teachers from middle school to University to language school who actually put in effort and cared enough to help me learn things or better yet get interested in subjects. Not so much respect for an American classmate with bad English who taught English for money and flirted with students, and less respect for one of my GF's local teachers who was trying to bang her (and other students) and kept inviting them out to drink late at night.
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    Maria,
    Or perhaps you're unlucky to have never met a decent teacher. You really think a few anecdotes are worth more than the experiences of people who are in the business? You think too highly of yourself.

    I mean, for chrissakes, so what if we're all a bunch of losers? We still speak English better than 99% of the locals. That's what we're paid to do. There's a high demand for our services. If we really were trash, we'd go some place where the weather is nicer and the girls aren't as clingy. Like I said, the really awful sexpats are at least intelligent enough to know that Bangkok has more to offer them.

    To put the thread back on topic, I wouldn't conclude that all Chinese men are bad lovers just because I heard a few bad stories from my ex-girlfriends. Nor am I going to conclude that all Chinese girls are all unabashedly classist and appallingly prejudicial, solely based on my own casual observation.
  • Joakim Berg Solum
    Yeah. I've met at least one of those guys. He introduced himself to me like so:

    Me: *walk in to the restaurant and joins my friends and see this new guy here
    Him: Hey what's up, my name is -------
    Me: Hey, I'm Jon
    Him: You know what I like?
    Me: What?
    Him: Pussy!

    It's incredible how quickly the level of dumb escalated there.
  • Simen Stensvoll
    its ridiculous
    job itself wouldn't be decent or not decent
    everyone who does his job well is respectable,and vice versa.
  • Erik Aleksander Aas
    Senator David Vitter of Louisiana used his power and influence as a senator to bang elite prostitutes. Does that make being a senator a trash profession?......but then again, politicians are all retards!
  • Amalie Sæverud
    @ Jon,

    That kind of pervert , i think, is averagely existing in every occupation!
    I think it won't be hard for you to find at least one among engineers or government officers or any other occupation! Or maybe the more paid money occupaion, the more that kind of perverts! Eeeek! the engineers or officers don't find me!

    Guys, we are supposed to discuss Girls and boys at first! why teachers are involved anyway?

    Teaching is really a decent job ! Teachers in general are respectable persons!

    And I really find one thing for sure! :) Teacher talks!
    Remind me one of the famous questions, who you would like to bring, if you will live on an isolated island? Definitely teachers! :) I won't feel one minute of loneliness or bored!
  • Klisklass Kjærlighet
    Girls posts are really closely observed and argued , this shows girls are always on demand in this forum :P lol
  • Daniel
    Daniel wrote:
    Dando,

    This was useful!


    You're complaining about institutional problems and saying it's okay to blame it on the hapless fools at the bottom of the hierarchy. Way to go, tough guy. Way to hold the teachers accountable.


    -Quote where I was complaining about these kinds of institutional problems.
    -Quote where I was saying it's okay to blame it on the hapless fools at the bottom of the hierarchy.

    Go on, practice your reading comprehension!

    How is this argument difficult to understand?

    The position Maria and I are taking is not one that is attacking ESL teachers. I understand some people are sensitive about this topic and go off on defensive, self-validating rants or invoke the ghost of racism at the slightest opportunity, and I concede that the language I used in my original reply was a bit tongue-in-cheek, but this is really not a topic with one side attacking the profession and the other having to defend it. It's an argument about the perception of (1)foreign teachers in China and (2)the status of their profession. The main personal view I've expressed here is that I don't think any job that can be done by anyone from a certain country can be perceived as 'decent' by the majority of people, irrespective of the benefits of that profession. That's what the argument is, so engage with that. Not with some pseudo-oppressed rhetoric about the truth of the profession and raising awareness of the true value of native teachers.


    On the topic of dodgy ESL teachers though, I have plenty of anecdotes!

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    Daniel,
    Yawn. Would you give it a fucking rest?

    The main personal view I've expressed here is that I don't think any job that can be done by anyone from a certain country can be perceived as 'decent' by the majority of people, irrespective of the benefits of that profession.

    Except, say, teaching a person from another country how to speak their native language. So what if it's not rocket science? Neither are a slew of business disciplines that people can perform simply through nepotism, having the right connections, and having basic communication skills. But you don't hear people calling them trash or saying their job isn't decent.

    It's plain, simple, ugly classism. Invoking the ghost of racism is only necessary because there are some assholes here who think one is acceptable, and the other is not.

    And for every anecdote you have about dodgy ESL teachers, I can name one who has a nice Chinese girlfriend. Ask them whether their guy has a decent job.

    Now go back to bed.
  • 哎呀
    哎呀 wrote:
    Such a turmoil. You should never mention something sensitive on public forum. I learned my lesson:-)

    Most foreign English teachers teach oral English here. That doesn’t need much skill. As long as you are a native English speaker, you can fulfill this job no matter you were a high school student, factory employee or construction worker back to your country. If you guys are honest with yourselves, you wouldn’t argue this with me. And when a profession doesn’t need much knowledge and education, normally it wouldn’t be seen as a decent occupation.

    Of course there are decent job and not decent job, but people with not decent job can be a totally decent person. For example, I think being a cleaner is not a decent job in this society, but that doesn’t mean people who pursue this job could never be intelligent, funny, honest and respectable. That doesn’t mean people from other decent job industry can’t make friends with them, fall in love with them, and get married with them.

    I’ve already earned myself two titles –“classist, racist” by accidentally chiming in this discussion. Will those words above get more titles for me?:-)
  • Joakim Berg Solum
    Elitist.
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    Let's start thinking about other jobs that don't require a whole lot of skill. That is, you don't necessarily have to go to school for four years to work in that specific field. You just need a bit of experience and basic communication skills.

    Import/export
    Sales
    Retail
    Receptionist
    Politician
    Civil servant
    Nurse
    Social worker
    Soldier
    Police officer
    Security guard
    Bank teller
    etc.

    None of these would be decent jobs by your exceedingly narrow definition. Skill isn't the only thing that makes a chosen vocation "decent".

    But hey I guess you're not a prejudicial classist (who said racist?). You just accidentally clicked "Agree & Post" again, and again, and again, and again. My bad. I didn't know you had a degenerative neurological disorder and pathological passive-aggression that caused you to randomly label people as foreign trash. Wow, I sure do feel like an asshole now.
  • 哎呀
    哎呀 wrote:
    Dando, I've already made my points clear. If you don't get it, that's your problem.

    Feel free to use all kinds of nasty words to describe me. I'm not the person who's not confident about himself and forces people to think his job is decent.

    You are definitely one of the most decent foreign teachers I've ever met!
  • Petter Meisfjordskar
    I am sure the last thing one can ever imagine difficult is teaching a language. I am a native speaker though not white and from the Caribbean, and i do not teach English here. But can you lady explain under what figure of speech the words "Nasty and decent" as you used them, fall? So i can know that it does not need knowledge to teach English anyway. The last thing anyone can ever do is teach a language whatever aspect of it is. And above all that, it is the widest subject i have ever seen. Anyway, everyone with his or her view, however cheap it might be. No need to enter "Does Africa Know about a song of me", which is equally a wrong phrase, and Dando's war. I think you two can make a good couple and give birth to a quarrelsome kid. Hahhahaa
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    Dando,
    I suppose I'm just incapable of understanding your ethereal logic. Perhaps I'm just seeing the elitists standing behind you. Or the perfectly crystal clear prism of your celestial wisdom has merely caught and refracted errant cosmic rays of prejudice and classism, thus my conclusion that you're looking down at an entire profession is just an optical illusion.

    Right.

    Actually, I'm pretty confident that I'm the most indecent foreign teacher you've never met, and I hope to keep it that way.
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    Aw christ and now I'm talking to myself. This is rather masturbatory, isn't it?
  • Petter Meisfjordskar
    The only point perhaps is that there are very few qualified foreign teachers in China, and they are not to blame. It is the schools to blame because what they want is a native speaker not a qualified teacher, and the students themselves want to see a white talking. To them, it is enough. So there is no need to complain about the teachers anyway. The school administrators are to blame. I have been to schools were the person interviewing a foreign teacher hardly weaves any correct sentences. Actually when the English is in a worrying state of health for any doctor to cure. But he or she heads a school that teaches English. How do you expect such a school to get qualified people? I am in for the foreign teachers who are using this opportunity to get money. Why care about what the situation is? Get the money full stop. A chance knocks once on someones door. One who wants quality English will go to a good school anyway.
  • ****
    **** wrote:
    i really do think that everyone would get a better understanding of everyone point and will know the thruth if there was a meeting to talk because writing like that is not easy.

    i've post a discussion a few days ago about a WLB festivals where all members could met and learn about each others and talk among others things . it could start for a small group or beeing a huge meeting festivals anyway i do think it would be nice and better for sharing

    TO YOU THE ORGANISERS AND FOUNDATINGS FATHERS OF WLB WHY DON'T YOU MAKE A WLB DAY FESTIVAL SO THAT WE CAN ALL MEET AND FINALLY GET UNDERSTAND WHEN WE MAKES OUR POINT.LIKE A RALLY, YOU KNOW LIKE THE INTRO FESTIVAL IN 798
  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)
    ...

    Any sooner we could discuss "are chinese girls really that good"?
  • Petter Meisfjordskar
    The thread expands with so many topics now. i do not know which one to discuss now. But a meeting would be bad. People have abused each other here, what if they meet physically?
  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)
    ...

    Bring the cage ... bring the cage ... *African tribal drum beat* ...
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    I think I speak for most of the WLIB population when I say I'm not a tough guy but I play one on the Internet.
  • Pete DeMola
    Pete DeMola wrote:
    Alban
    We love parties! We've had several WLIB parties in the past -- the most recent one was in October -- and would like to organize some this summer.

    It's just a very busy time for us now: we're firing on all cylinders with a multitude of other projects.

    I think we'll do something at Tun Bar in a month-or-so.

    Stay tuned, I guess. And we still want to have a cage match in which everyone fights each other.
  • Erik Aleksander Aas
    Are Chinese Girls Really That Good? That would be interesting. Make it happen 叮噹叔叔!

    I'm a tough guy Dando. And yes, that is me on my profile pic. (Although I force myself to shave nowadays!)

    Bring the cage ... bring the cage ... *African tribal drum beat* ...!!
  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)
    ...

    Hahahaha ... Vincent, Vincent, Vincent ... I am married to one, do you think it would be safe for me to reveal the truth?
  • Joakim Berg Solum
    I think a better title would be "Where are the good Chinese girls?"

    Screw the cage. Let's talk to management at Nirvana at Sanlitun to let us use their boxing ring for a day. If anyone would actually do it, I would love to fuck around sparring with people. Only boxing though, no feet. I have absolutely no experience as I just started trying to pick up pugilism but I am a heavyweight weighing in at 100+kg! hahaha
  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)
    ...

    Hahahaha ... glad to see that Jon is brave enough to admit the truth ...
  • Joakim Berg Solum
    "Aw christ and now I'm talking to myself. This is rather masturbatory, isn't it?"

    Masturbatory, incest, or homosexual?
  • Undermoonlight
    Native speakers teaching their mother languages in China is a good thing~~frankly, they have contributed a lot to the improvement of Chinese people's foreign language proficiency (esp. English)~I'd like to admit that, quite ashamed though as a person with a chinese origin, most of (let's say 80%) college English teachers (of Chinese nationality) have appallingly poor proficiency in English~~~Opening-up is not just to import or learn something from the outside, but also to let the lousy,sluggish aspects of society get shocked, hence stimulating development~Try to see things through a broad perspetive, people~
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    Jon Gu,
    Buttsex. In the mouth.
  • Joakim Berg Solum
    Wow. You blew my mind, now blow me!
  • Petter Meisfjordskar
    With the cage fight, we need to fight traditional African way, no cloths. "African war drum beat"
  • Pete DeMola
    Pete DeMola wrote:
    COOL
    Nah, I'm not down with fighting dudes without any clothes on.

    How about we compromise:

    Participants can remove any one article of clothing of their choice (your gay African style) while others may bring their choice of either a switchblade, a pair of brass knuckles or a Louisville Slugger baseball bat (my cool New York style).

    What do you say?

    Others are welcome to bring articles that I've missed: burning tires, assault rifles... human shields.
  • Amalie Sæverud
    cage fight in African way? can i bring video camera?
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    Jon Gu,
    I didn't hear you offer to buy dinner first.

    Nikkiebaby,
    Put down the yaoi fanfiction and take a cold shower.
  • Amalie Sæverud
    yaoi is English? sorry I'm not a native speaker, Teacher
  • Amalie Sæverud
    well, i bring video camera only for scientific purpose! so after the fight, we can sit down and make a conclusion, are Chinese guys really that bad or not? haha!

    I think we are still under the thread right?
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    Japanese for gay, actually.
  • Amalie Sæverud
    hope there aren't any Japanese here, or this thread will be much longer than expectation! :)
  • Petter Meisfjordskar
    @Nikkiebaby
    You bring the camera provided you take videos while inside the cage and in the very fighting attire the fighters are wearing. In that way, we will know you are not taking our video out for sale or to government agents.
  • Amalie Sæverud
    what's the fighting attire the fighters are wearing?
  • Petter Meisfjordskar
    Adam and Eve suit!
  • Amalie Sæverud
    I prefer star war costume! why not I wear star war costume, and you guys wear Adam and Eva, whatever, so we can have another conflicting funny element in our gathering?
  • Petter Meisfjordskar
    @Nikkiebaby,
    When do you leave the site? Ehhhh. No sleeping? hahahaha. Your husband must be grumbling in bed now.
  • Amalie Sæverud
    so you give up now? hahaha
    I don't have a husband and even if i have one, he can't order me when to bed, ok?
  • Petter Meisfjordskar
    Who gives up? At least not a COOL man like me. I am sure he has read this, let us wait for the tears tomorrow.
  • Petter Meisfjordskar
    In fact i am taking a bottle of wine as you can see. Wanna join?
  • Amalie Sæverud
    you watch too much desperate house wives!
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    Star Wars costume? As in, Princess Leia in the slave outfit from Return of the Jedi?
  • Petter Meisfjordskar
    @Nikkiebaby
    Actually i play my own series. I never watch such. How do you find them? I prefer a glass of wine to watching such.
  • Zoé
    Zoé wrote:
    我不得不三八一下!
    不过这个问题好二啊~~~
  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)
    ...

    Hahahaha ... the Star Wars costume? How about just a big Darth Vader helmet like the one from the Star Balls movie? :)
  • Daniel
    Daniel wrote:
    Dando: I know it's died down now but I can't resist a good internet argument(it makes me tingle in that special place). And as I have returned from the bed(see previous parenthesised comment), here we go:

    Regarding business jobs: you don't hear people calling these jobs 'not decent' because they're associated with hard-work and skill, even if that isn't always the case in practice. If you're raising a child with the hope of them getting a job like this, you'd hope they're hard-working, smart and dedicated as opposed to conniving, flattering and beguiling, despite the latter group of adjectives probably being a more practical list to shoot for.

    Regarding classist: how exactly is this a class issue again? I could go on, but it'd belabour the point.

    Regarding everything else: I think you should start a group, incite some pro-English fervour and march on Beijing. Stick it to the People.
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    Daniel:
    And English is associated with international business and fuck-difficult grammar, and teachers are associated with public service and self-sacrifice. You're getting awfully wishy-washy and subjective with this line of reasoning.

    My point was that a lot of business jobs don't actually require skills or training besides basic communication skills, and you find a lot of people getting involved in business regardless of their verifiable academic qualifications. Sounds familiar, right?

    It's a class issue because you've heavily implied and stopped just short of outright explicating that a person needs to attend university for four years in order to hold a "decent" job. Originally, you said it wasn't decent because any native speaker could hold such a job regardless of qualifications.

    However, the only quality that has any significant market value in the eyes of the clients is the teacher's ability to speak the language as it's usually spoken. If a parent finds out that their kid's tutor doesn't have a piece of paper validating his or her ability to teach ESL, they're more likely to use it as leverage to get a discount rather than fire the teacher. Even the most lowly peasant among us is still fluent with his or her native language. And really, that's all anyone truly cares about.

    That, and in many cases, a white face, but the amount of white privilege in this business is a different can of worms.

    In short, any idiot can do it. So what? At the end of the day, the client is going to learn something valuable from even a piss-poor Foreign Trash Teacher, even if it's by setting a bad example. I spend a lot of time showing my students how native speakers commonly tend to completely fuck up their own language. It's instructive.

    And I daresay that getting anyone closer to knocking over language barriers has more objective value for society than working at a desk in a motherfucking bank.



    Close enough: the training center paraded me out in front of the primary school to try and convince parents to come in for demonstrations. I feel dirty. I feel dirty and used.
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    Wait, I got it. Here's that one special quality that even the lowliest of English teachers have that makes them worthy of veneration:

    The balls to walk into a foreign country on a tourism visa with nothing to sell but words.
  • Daniel
    Daniel wrote:
    Dando
    The perception of teachers you're referring to(self-sacrifice/public service) is different to the perception of foreign teachers in China, not least because native teachers need to be certified. But you're right, this is just my opinion....oh, wait one second...!

    The only class issue here is your belief that a university education is linked to class, which is a strange argument to make outside of the 19th century. This I will be subjective about because, well, I bet ma dad's poorer 'an 'ur dad! It's definitely an elitist view though, so I'd go to town on that if I were you.

    Replying to everything else is a bit pointless. So, fine, I agree with you.ESL teachers are fantastic, modern-day saints and deserve every respect for speaking their native language in a foreign country. And even if they do get laid a ridiculous amount in the process, let's live and let live.

    But decent?

    -Employment is not based on merit.
    -Performance takes a back seat to marketability.
    -Very little, if any, progression.
    -The only barrier to entry is country of origin.
    -Criminality is an admirable quality (thanks for that one! ;) )

    It wouldn't really say these are markers of a decent job.

    Of course there are exceptions and good qualities to be found too, but I would say the above is true for most ESL jobs on offer in China. Am I completely wrong about this?

  • Saina
    Saina wrote:
    Impressed by the similarities between The Image of English Teacher in China and The Image of Chinese girls in Laowai's mind", and how they became like that.

    While it's China and Chinese girls have different preferences comparing to western girls, if u want to date a Chinese girl u have to put up with our Chineseness, if u can't , just go and date western girls ( think if u r an interesting guy u would win their heart as easily as guys with good money win the body of some materialized girls, no matter Chinese or Russian or American, It's so unfair that some of the guys here r actually dating Chinese girls or want to date Chinese girls while critisizing them in this forum) . And Chinese girls r also free to make their choice between foreigners and chinese guys according to their own value, I admit that many Chinese girls like to be treated as pet and get all the bills paid by their boyfriend, and they don't expect to talk about politics and economics with him, many couples around me live this way and both the girl and the guy r happy with it. It's just that I personally think treating ur gf as a pet isn't an attractive thing, like Jon thinks paying for the girl's bills is stupid, it's just our personal attitude and I can't say I could represent the majority of Chinese girl, what I did is just telling ppl what I saw from most of the girls around me.

    But a significate difference is ppl's attitude towards Chinese girls dating foreigners: I dated a Swedish guy when I was in Europe and I felt no problem going out or acting intimate in public with him, ppl just see us as normal lovers, our friend had no objection, and yes, we split the bills most of the time.

    Back in China when I went out with foreigners (usually looking clearly dencent), no matter client, friend or potential bf, I just kept feeling the disgusted looks from others as if they saw me spiting on the street ( or even worse), not to mention if I dared to act intimate with him, if I reveal the secret of dating a foreigner to my friends or parents, all of them would immediately remind me " FOREIGNERS R NOT RELIABLE) , in the restaurant the waitress simply go straight to the guy with the bill and when we told her that we want to split it , most of the time, she would be surprised and then started to look me with such a deep sympathy that some sensitive European guys would start to feel guilty (American guys never did, but that's not the reason that I'm not very interested in them, I just find it hard to have an interesting and relaxed talk with them, my problem, really). In such an atmosphere girls need to be a bit "cheeky" to have a foreign boyfriend, while most of the trash chasers are....and foreigners, if ur girl friend is a good girl and still want to be with u, please treat her better, as she is under some big pressure that she would never have while dating a Chinese guy, to be ur girl friend, instead of keep crabbing at her Chineseness.






  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    Daniel,
    Responding at all to your batshit necromancy is pointless, but I'll do it anyway, heedless of your half-assed inability to respond completely, because you are, as Stephen Colbert would say, A Worthy Opponent.

    The only class issue here is your belief that a university education is linked to class, which is a strange argument to make outside of the 19th century.

    Uh, what? Are you familiar with the term "opportunity cost"? For a moment, let's ignore the fact that you're taking your own country's subsidization of higher learning for granted. Going to university costs a lot of time that not everyone has. Your argument is that any idiot can do it without training or certification. That's an elitist attitude.

    For fuck's sake, there was a time when working on the assembly line in an auto factory was considered a decent job with a pension and great benefits. A job that can support a family.

    Anyway, there are no barriers to entry. But there are barriers to advancement. People don't just land jobs as directors of studies and program coordinators without putting in some kind of effort or commitment.

    There are some schools that care about performance and some that don't. But you're joking if you think there's no room for advancement or progress based on merit. Hello! International schools. Have you heard of them? The salary and benefits are better there than at the language training centers, and they actually give a shit about certification and teaching standards. I don't think you'd have landed that job teaching literature if you hadn't possessed SOME suitable qualities besides being an arrogant prick.

    It's not a fair and just system, but that's no reason to say the whole profession is shit. And what then shall we say about the teachers who aren't white and/or not from English-speaking countries? I work with some. I work FOR some. Do you realize that you're degrading their hard work as well while you make these broad generalizations about their vocation?

    Who said anything about criminality being admirable? I was talking about chutzpah. Or do you think little things like immigration regulations are truly sacred laws worthy of anyone's respect?
  • Joakim Berg Solum
    "Batshit necromancy" - fucking LMAO I'm totally stealing this from you and going to incorporate it into my repertoire
  • Daniel
    Daniel wrote:
    Dando,
    My inability to respond to everything you say is certainly not half-assed, thank you! It's more a fully-assed filtering of things I think you'll respond to rationally from things that'll set you off again on one of those messianic Marxists rants of yours. Seriously now, I'm not trying to oppress the proletariat: I love that dude, like woah.

    You still haven't explained how this is tied to social or economic class in order for it to be a classist argument. The opportunity cost reference was flimsy but I can see where you're going with it. You haven't outright said it yet, so I'll wait for your explanation before I completely disagree with you with my heartfelt tale of woe and economic privation. ;)

    As for your factor-worker example, well, you know Dando, there was a time when men were kind, and their voices were soft, and their words were inviting. And there was a time, when love was blind, and the world was a song, and the song was exciting. But there was a time it all went wrong.
    ( Era? Country? And really? You think workers on an assembly line would think of their job as decent? Do you know any workers on an assembly line?)

    Regarding advancement: let me get this straight, you think being an ESL teacher for a language institute, getting PGCE-certified in your spare time and then finally getting a job as a qualified teacher in an International School counts as built-in advancement for language school gigs? What kind of logic is that? Bettering yourself whilst you're working doesn't mean your job has possiblities of advancement just because your part time study can lead you to better jobs.

    And let's get something else straightened out here: complaining about my using broad generalisations is a bit of a retarded criticism for an argument about broad generalisations. I keep linking back to the original topic and hopefully one of these repetitions will fight its way through to you, but we're talking about the perception of foreign teachers in China and not my being some ESL anti-Christ hellbent on selling me own kin...in fact, my opinions of the ESL industry are probably quite close to yours, but not my opinions on the general perception of ESL teaching.

    It's not a fair and just system, but that's no reason to say the whole profession is shit.

    Yeah, again, point to where I said 'the whole profession is shit'...and when you do find the 'Being an ESL Teacher is not a decent job' quote, could you please, for the love of Mao, try to think of ways of interpreting that sentence within the 'Girls in China don't think English teaching is a decent job' context.

    Then you wrote some more stuff about how I know this awesome guy who's teaching English and is completely awesome and decent. I've already told you, I agree, English Teachers are collectively the Second Coming, though I'm sure the first time was enough.


    Who said anything about criminality being admirable? I was talking about chutzpah. Or do you think little things like immigration regulations are truly sacred laws worthy of anyone's respect?

    Yeah...teaching on a tourist visa is illegal. People get away with it often enough, the Chinese haven't cracked down on it in the same way the Koreans and the Japanese have over the last decade but it's all good and illegal nonetheless. Please don't be one of those 'It's only illegal if you get caught' guys! That's not cool.

    Not that I have a problem with illegality(there you go, forcing me into my opinions because you keep shooting for them and getting them wrong) but let's not dance around the subject by making out that these people that lie about their intentions for coming to China and spit in the face of pretty standard immigration law(tourist means tourist, not migrant worker) are modern day revolutionaries to be admired and commended for their 'chutzpah'.
  • Erik Aleksander Aas
    Whatever man.
  • Joakim Berg Solum
    Chuck, a rational argument gets a rational response in kind. The only thing I can say to you is:

    eat-a-dick
  • MiLo
    MiLo wrote:
    i dont read this thread, i just hate ppl judge others, chinese are good, chinese are bad, american are good american are bad, Brazilian are good Brazilian are bad, is there any fun in this argument? funny
  • MiLo
    MiLo wrote:
    OKOKOK,
    I ve deleted my dirty words.
    sorry for disturbing u.
    byebye
  • Erik Aleksander Aas
    And I mine....now, can we all just play nice :)
  • MiLo
    MiLo wrote:
    haha,agreed.
  • Saina
    Saina wrote:
    and suddenly, this place got quiet and boring................
  • Amalie Sæverud
    becuase you are not here, Sai Na :)
  • Petter Meisfjordskar
    Been watching like i always do.
  • Kodi
    Kodi wrote:
    HAHA I was offered a good white collar job for a good consulting company... Is that a decent job? Oh it pays 25,000 yuan and I only need to work Monday, Weds, and Fri....only in the afternoons.. Free time, enough money to live comfortably without worrying about fighting for promotions and being underpaid at 10,000rmb with a masters degree.... Guess what! I turned it down because of personal reasons.....

    What people see as decent jobs these days are supposed to fulfill their materialist ideas of what life is supposed to be about. Corporate white collar is not decent haha! You sit in a office doing shit like analyzing markets, predicting trends, telling people how to exploit people more efficiently while real hardworking people like Doctors, Elementary school teachers, garbage collectors, dentists, social workers, volunteers, sociologists, farmers, psychologists, fire department workers, search and rescue, etc.... Perform real honorable deeds in society..... You do not think a garbage worker is honorable? Hmmm take out your own trash for a change and see how much you need those people. You think a farmer is not a decent job? Grow your own food and see how much you need them......

    People should really need to learn to appreciate everyone they need.... It is very easy to forget how much we need some people who do those seemingly "indecent" jobs...... Money has nothing to do with it. Of course some people who have money will try to fool themselves and others that it is very important and that they really are good simply because they have money...

    Chinese guys are not bad.... Bad guys are bad.... Asshole guys are bad....

    All my Chinese friends are really decent guys. It is actually amazing that they are single. It is funny how insecure they are because of the fact that they have no money.
    It is also funny how secure and confident some of the smallest, dorkiest, and unattractive men are because they have a little money in China. Talking to them and seeing how they treat women it is amazing to me that a woman would even let a man like that touch her. It is crazy how effective capitalism is at convincing China that it is the only thing that matters.

    I am not trying to generalize, but I am not sure if you saw the special on CCTV in 2007 where they took scholars from the west and scholars from China and talked to them about what their dreams are. All of the westerners had some amazing dreams about helping the world, feed the poor, help the environment, fix some social problems, etc... All the Chinese guys they asked said, "Get rich and successful"

    This was a big issue in 2007 and it made a splash in the international media also. I was here in Beijing studying for the summer.

    Please describe what a good guy is just to clarify.....

    Money, nice, hansom, strong, tender, self control?


  • Erik Aleksander Aas
    Well said Kodi.

    Back home we have a name for women that sleep with men for financial gain.

    Where is the LOVE people?
  • Da Fan
    Da Fan wrote:
    WOW, well said Kodi, cannot agree more. I'd like to change the situation, but now it seems that all that we can do is to follow our own way and wait and see..
  • Petter Meisfjordskar
    I think people look at a decent job as one that can offer good money. There is no way i can be in a white color job that does not offer me enough for a living when i can do a rather ugly job that offers great. To me, the ugly job would be decent. Because i can save anyway. However odd the job might be, it is the person working to make it honorable and respectable. I can be a toilet cleaner, earning a lot of money and actually the way i treat myself will call respect. There is nothing that can stop me from wearing a suit while cleaning my toilet for a good money.
  • Kodi
    Kodi wrote:
    I would stick my middle finger in their face and say "Fuck you"
  • Kodi
    Kodi wrote:
    A job that is needed in society such as, grave digging, toilet cleaning, child rearing, waitress, trash collection, do not determine what the moral standards of the person doing the job. The person should be respected if he or she is a good person no matter what work they must do to survive. If a person is respectable then they are respectable without reference to what work they do.... I speak to different people from many walks of life and I have found low quality people unworthy of respect from every so called level of society.

    People may judge people from what work they do, however it is they who are wrong for doing that and not the person who is being judged. To give in to the people who are judging is to silently agree with their stupid, narrow view of understanding the world.....

    In the not too distant past 99% of Chinese were all as poor as dirt farmers. Are you telling me that they were all without virtue because of their dirty jobs, or because they were less developed than the rest of the world? That way of thinking was imported by colonialist, elitist, and classist assholes. Like I said everyone wants to separate themselves from the pack and make themselves seem of higher class than those perceived as lower than themselves..... It is all a fantasy. When we die we all turn into dust no matter how much respect we demand, we all bleed the same color, and we can't take our money and respectable job with us. Organisms in the world are nothing more than organisms. I will fight for the small man until the day I die because there is no one who needs more help than the virtuous poor who are unfortunately at the mercy of greedy self righteous so called upper classes who have achieved success through the creative manipulation of a game called capitalism. People are part of nature, capitalism is not. So how can capitalism attempt to define the nature of people?

    I do not think rich people are bad and money is not evil, but for people to define others on the basis of money and capital gain is just plain stupid. Those people deserve to replace the people whom they are judging, so that they may learn what life is really about. Take a walk in their shoes and learn what true virtue is all about.

    Gold digger is only a clever whore..... She can be bought and is of no interest to me anyway. Why would anyone care what she thinks anyway? What is the difference between buying someone for an hour and buying someone for years? For women to lower themselves to that level is to define themselves as a commodity. Commodities are things that can be bought like: a house, car, toothpaste, toys, a phone, etc..... If men are able to buy women then the women will never gain the respect they deserve.
  • Kodi
    Kodi wrote:
    Oh yeah and I do not think that whores are bad because everyone has a reason for the position he or she is in. Just because someone does sex work does not make them less virtuous. The virtue is inherent in the personality. I only used this example because most others will understand a whore to be without virtue and a woman certainly does not wish to be called a whore right?
  • Joakim Berg Solum
    Kodi: Bite me, you god damned socialist! hahaha

    Let me share a quote by the good Dr. Martin Luther King with you elitist bastards (Paulina, I'm talking to you!): “If a man is called to be a street sweeper, he should sweep streets even as Michelangelo painted, or Beethoven composed music, or Shakespeare wrote poetry. He should sweep streets so well that all the hosts of heaven and earth will pause to say, here lived a great street sweeper who did his job well.”

    Do what you want to do and do it well. That's the secret to life isn't it? Paulina, I seriously cannot believe you just said that people who do lower end manual labor jobs are immoral. What. The. Fuck. If the world is full of people who share your view, it would be better to be the only person in the world.
  • Petter Meisfjordskar
    @Paulina
    Who tells you that the ugly job would be immoral? When i talk of ugly, i mean jobs like cleaning a toilet unless you have some other definition.. Who cares about the Chinese girls anyway? Do i work because they will see me and laugh? I see fellow Chinese working in the street toilets and some sleep actually just besides the toilets themselves. At home it is a Chinese lady, actually with her daughter, that clean our rooms and the toilets too. But we never laugh at them! If the Chinese girls can laugh that shows how primitive and naive they still are because their fellow Chinese are doing the same but no foreigner ever laughs at them.

    It has really amazed me Miss Paula that you can even say that. That is why sluts are far better. They never mind about where the money is got from.

    And if i my ask, if i came to you, looking the man of your dreams and you feel in love with me before telling you my job. I give you all that you need and shower you with love more than you ever thought. Would you run away if later you found out i was a toilet cleaner?
  • Petter Meisfjordskar
    And in any case, i am sure the world needs these people greatly. With the spitting and un hygienic situation in Beijing, what would the toilets and streets look if we do not have these people there? It is really a stupid thought to think such people can never be respected. One accords respect depending on the way he or she treats himself or herself. Even the street whores have respect, everyone, so long as you respect yourself.
  • Petter Meisfjordskar
    Talk of Chinese girls laughing? hahhahaa, In the name of the dead Pope John Paul, i would not mind an inch if a Chinese girl laughed at me. Hahhaaa. The most important is the one i stay with. If she is fine with what i do to make us live and survive, than the rest of the Paulinas do not bother me at all.
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    Mike Rowe won't be job shadowing any ESL teachers, will he?
  • Daniel
    Daniel wrote:
    Jon: You're misrepresenting her post. High-five!

    I'm been wondering if a lot of this could have been avoided if 'good' was used instead of 'decent'...it seems there's a conceptual problem here.

    To all of you that are giving these examples of how jobs like toilet cleaner, gravedigger or farmer are 'decent' because they provide vital services, let me ask, who are you trying to convince? No one here is saying that these jobs(or ESL jobs) can not be valuable, vital and important, and allow people a sense of self-worth through the idea that they're contributing to society at large.

    This is about how people differentiate between decent and not decent jobs, which for all of the moral righteousness(which I'm sure is well meant) present in this thread is not based completely on whether something is 'useful' or 'contributory'.

    To my mind, the important factors that people use in deciding whether or not someone's job is decent involve the following criteria:

    Well-paid (maybe the most important, but not the only factor)
    Moral (My first girlfriend became a high-end stripper. A lot of money but doesn't quite qualify as 'decent')
    Difficult/Special(A job as an Academic doesn't pay particularly well and takes about the same length of time as qualifying as a solicitor/lawyer, but I'd guess qualified Professor would be considered a 'decent' job)

    I think most conceptions of 'decent' jobs that people use when they judge someone's profession requires 2 of those 3. This is just a spur-of-the-moment hypothesis though
  • Petter Meisfjordskar
    Well, a toilet cleaner is acceptable, that means it is a decent job. To, some jobs you think are not decent like grave digging might be earning more than what you think is decent sir. I do not see any difference you have made in your post about how different that can be.
  • Saina
    Saina wrote:
    Nikkiebaby wrote:
    becuase you are not here, Sai Na :)

    Thank u dear, I thought it was because I came here....

    I agree that jobs r not naturally classified as dencent or not. The image of jobs r set up by ppl who took them. English teacher is the best example here. As far as I could remember there was no discrimination against foreign English teachers in China ten years ago.

    In fact, many of the so-called decent jobs in China become decent just because people working on them have better education background and better manner, not better morality or attitude. Government official is obviously a decent job here, and they take bribes, spend taxpayers' money on luxurious dinners and cars, not to mention mistresses.

    To my limited experience, the most respectable employee I've worked with is the sales assistants in CK Underwear: they behave strictly according to the rules, treat their job and manager seriously and very proficient at everthing they need to do. But they earn less than 10% of the salary of ppl in the consulting company I interned in, where everything I had to do is to download Mckinsey or Boston templets and cook them up to something the clients want to see. My job now is generally considered as decent, too: but I feel guity taking money for sitting here doing nothing but posting in a forum...God I miss the feeling of working with those shop assistants!

  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    Sai Na,
    I wasn't aware that there was any discrimination against English teachers at all in China, Comrade Daniel's hyperbole notwithstanding. Perhaps some white collar snobs and hopeful gold diggers might scoff because it isn't especially skilled work, but then again, neither are a lot of helping professions.
  • Daniel
    Daniel wrote:
    Cool: Toilet Cleaner
    Well paid : No
    Moral : I guess!
    Difficult: No

    I might be being presumptuous but I think if you took a survey of 100 people in any major city in the world and asked them 'Do you think a job as a toilet cleaner is a decent job?', the majority would say 'No'.

    And what also pisses me off a bit is when you guys raise the level of jobs in this sort of patronising way: if toilet cleaning or grave-digging is such a decent job, what exactly stopped you from pursuing this profession? This part is me being a bit subjective and sensitive, but a lot of these meandering side-tracks sound to me a lot like How dare you say this terrible job isn't decent? It's very important! ...but I'd never be caught doing it'.
  • Petter Meisfjordskar
    The whole issue is not to under look jobs at a cost of being low level because you think they are not well paying. First, if decency is about money, that is a different case, but we have seen many people doing such jobs like grave digging that earn much. If all of us were to do the same jobs, then what would the world be? Decent to me goes with respect, moral and being acceptable in society, not money. Which all gets up to the way one takes himself. Even if i am a toilet cleaner, when i have respect for myself and my job, many will respect me too. And will look at it or grave digging as decent. And if it is earning money, well we all have different needs and limits. There are people that do not even have a chance of getting the street sweeping job and look at street sweepers as having a decent job. You are saying this because you might be having a well paid job and under looking other jobs that are below your level. One lady here gave an example of government officials earning great dime and are admired, but they take bribes and she thinks it is not decent. She even feels bad about her job anyway. SO it depends on what you are at the moment that you look at other jobs as not being decent.
  • Daniel
    Daniel wrote:
    Can we just confirm first that there are grave-diggers and toilet-cleaners that are well-paid, please? Have I been missing out on some fantastic career advice?

    Can we also stop assuming that most toilet-cleaners and grave-diggers have some in-built respect for the work they do, as opposed to, say, being depressed and disillusioned with a society that sees their main use as cleaning up the waste of other people. I shouldn't have to say this but: Please, stop romanticising the toilet cleaners!

  • Petter Meisfjordskar
    very true.
    @Paulina,
    Why should i care about people who laugh at others jobs? I will care and respect one who respects me. And saying that does not mean i do not care about human race. But i will care for one with respect. What i refereed to as the "Paulinas" are the Chinese girls you said will laugh at me. Why should i care about them?
  • Pete DeMola
    Pete DeMola wrote:
    We be well-paid.


  • Erik Aleksander Aas
    Decent job = Money?

    Maybe you have a desire to earn a living as a porn star. Let's see how much money is in porn. Wanna book a porn girl for nudie pics? That’s gonna run you about *$100 bucks an hour. She should also play with herself a little bit for that kind of dough. But don’t expect her to ram a giant dildo up her snatch. That’s gonna cost you a tad more.
    Blowjob scene more your speed? That’s $250 – $300, depending on the girl. If you want her to gag, or drool, or do a “rough” BJ, add $50 or so.
    I know. I know. You like lesbians. Who doesn’t? That’s a $400 – $800 deal, per girl. It just depends on the girl, and what it is you exactly want them to do.
    Personally, jerking off to lesbos got boring when I was still in high school. I really like to watch people fuck. That’s gonna be $700 to $1000 per girl. Expect to pay the dude anywhere from $100 bucks all the way up to $1000…again, it really depends on the dude – specifically, how big is the pee-pee? And can Homey keep it hard when those hot lights are on him? With strangers around, watching it all?
    If you’re really naughty, you like to see a girl take it up the butt. Figure $1100 – $1400.
    And you like more than one guy, of course! That’s an extra $200 per dick for whatever it is you’re talking about…BJ’s, sex, buttsex. Whatever. Unless he’s just dropping a load…then it’s only a hundie more.
    Don’t ask me about weirdo fetish type shit. I can’t help.
    Now here’s the fun part – let’s do the math! If you’re a dude, and you’re at, say, $400 a scene, and you manage to get work 3 days out of the week, you’re at $1200 a week! 62K a year to fuck porn stars!! Uh huh!
    Let’s say you’re a chick, and you’re a heet. (Heet=hot) You’re getting booked for sex scenes every day of the week! That’s almost $5000 a week! WOW! And you can do that as long as your poonanny holds up. And when she gives, start doing anal! (By the way, don’t worry about your period…that’s what make-up sponges are for, silly.)

    Decent enough for you?
    Now get to work!

    (*Figures obtained from "Billy Watson", a porn camera man)

  • Kodi
    Kodi wrote:
    @Daniel Godfrey: What I am hinting in my posts is that the job does not make a person bad and people who do jobs that are not considered as decent can also be good people. I am sure no one wants to grow up to be a toilet cleaner, but they do not deserve to be discounted because that is where they end up in life. Some spoiled people do not know what it is like to actually have to fight from the bottom for anything. If they did then they would definitely not laugh at someone that does or even point out the fact that the job the poor person is doing is not considered to be decent.

    Have you ever cleaned a toilet or are you too good for that? Who is to say a person cannot be happy cleaning toilets? I did not pursue this work because I guess it just wasn't in the cards for me.
  • Petter Meisfjordskar
    If you care a, how many Chinese have passed these fellow Chinese baggers on streets including you? If so, why is it that China has the biggest gap between the rich and the poor? Ehh, tell me that lady. If all these extremely rich Chinese gave a proportion to their country men, many would be fine. Just recent, a Chinese girl confessed to me that she is studying management, but would be hard to manage a company in China if not related to the owner. They do not mind about education but relationship. Lady, do not deceive people here. I might be a foreigner, but i know some little about the Chinese people lady.

    Hahahhahaa, you care madam, when the rich are greatly rich and some are

    sleeping on the roads
    with homes without doors.
    with stomachs without food
    sun scorching the feet
    the cold cripple the fingers
    and hardly a cloth on the bones
    A rich Chinese on the streets
    cared for by Paulina her Country mate.


  • Petter Meisfjordskar
    I have just fallen in love with your character all the same. If it is relationship, well, Chinese ladies i hear care, that is love relationships. But the bond of togetherness and caring for the poor and week, in China, every family on its own and God for them all. Sorry, many do not believe in God.

    However may fair princess lady Paulina, learn to interpret and be a self reliant person. I have had so many Chinese people, especially the teens and the ones in Twenties, when asked why they do something the way they do it, the say, either the teacher, parent or government said so. Our uncle like you said is an old scholar and things are changing sweet heart.

    You have really showed care to me by making me understand what you meant sweet angel. I think we need to get down somewhere the two of us and talk about this issue more. What do you think?
    How is your uncle the old scholar? Send him greetings from the will be in law.

    Good nite dear Paulina. May the almighty grant you the best dreams you have ever thought of.
  • Daniel
    Daniel wrote:
    @Kodi,
    I know! And what I was saying was that I haven't really seen anyone in this thread, or at least, anyone that has posted more than once, come out and say 'a bad job makes a person bad and people who do jobs that are not considered as decent are bad people'. So why are so many people coming out to defend 'the common man' when no-one, to my mind, has really been trying to attack him.

    What you were saying, and what Dando was saying about foreign teachers and what other people who ripped into Maria were saying is that you shouldn't judge someone just based on your perceptions of the job they do. And I agree with this, completely, most of the people I grew up with and a lot of my family do these poorly-perceived jobs and I don't think they're bad people.

    But in most cultures jobs have this status attached to them: in many ways you are your job, and people use your job as a barometer for success. The original comment that sparked this huge tangent is that girls want guys with decent jobs or good jobs(as I interpreted 'decent') which I don't think is a particularly controversial claim when you talk general terms. And so what I've been posting about is really trying to explain why certain jobs are not considered decent . I'm not trying to argue that these jobs are actually bad and should be considered so. Does distinction make any sense to anyone else or am I beating a dead horse here?


    Regarding toilet cleaning: Unless it became fantastically well-paid beyond the scope of my planned career, I can't imagine doing this. And who's to say these people aren't happy with the jobs they do? Well, the friends and family I know that do have these jobs. It's anecdotal and so doesn't really count, but I'll take personal experience over idealogical internet righteousness any day! This part of this topic has pissed me off a bit because it gives with the one hand and slaps with the other, all the while smiling at the poor downtrodden people. It's 'Toilet cleaning can be a very good job, but this was never a viable option for me'...and I'd suspect the reason it was never an option is because it was never considered a decent or good job to go into: something that people fall into rather than aspire to. And in this view, it's logically necessary to think of the people that do these jobs as either having no ambition, failing or being so blissfully unaware of the shortcomings of the job they wanted that they'd pursue it in spite of the stigma attached. I mean, how many people do you know dreamed of becoming a toilet cleaner when they grew up? Or when they went to high school? Why do you think this is?




  • Petter Meisfjordskar
    Decent means money to you people. That is all. I thought it meant morally acceptable .
  • Saina
    Saina wrote:
    Decent doesn't mean money, but money could help the ones taking that job to be considered as decent.

    And considering how the decency of ur job affects ur relationship....I suppose u won't say there r more and hotter girls who want to marry a toliet cleaner than those who want to marry a mafia lord?
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    You people? YOU PEOPLE??!?!?!
  • Pete DeMola
    Pete DeMola wrote:
    "You people" is one of those phrases that makes me all stabby.
  • Malin Aaker
    Malin Aaker wrote:
    Pete, I think what you actually wanted to say is "You people make me all stabby when you say: you people!"
  • 随便叫兽
    随便叫兽 wrote:
    OH NO YOU DIDN'T!
  • Simen Stensvoll
    mad world,mad people
  • Petter Meisfjordskar
    I am not mad, i am cool.

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