Discussion » Current Events » Google to stop censoring search results.

  • DonkeyTonk
    DonkeyTonk wrote:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2010/jan/12/google-china-ends-censorship

    Some words from the Google Blog:
    "These attacks and the surveillance they have uncovered–combined with the attempts over the past year to further limit free speech on the web–have led us to conclude that we should review the feasibility of our business operations in China. We have decided we are no longer willing to continue censoring our results on Google.cn, and so over the next few weeks we will be discussing with the Chinese government the basis on which we could operate an unfiltered search engine within the law, if at all. We recognize that this may well mean having to shut down Google.cn, and potentially our offices in China."


    The cynic in me says their new PR guy is doing a good job.
    The google nerd in me says bring it on.



  • Kkg
    Kkg wrote:
    they won't deal with chinese government any more if they back off in the end.
  • DonkeyTonk
    DonkeyTonk wrote:
    In the USA, Google does not censor it's results for their government and doesn't alter their results to make the USA government look like they are doing a better job than they really are. In the same way, they don't alter their search results to make the chinese government look bad either.

    The most they've ever done is put a note explaining why some results could seem a little strange.
  • TonyDice
    TonyDice wrote:
    old news Sun.

    Anyway, this is all about spies and hackers from China trying to steal info on Chinese dissidents' gmail accounts. A step too far for Google it seems

    It's going to end in tears, of course
  • Aurélien
    Aurélien wrote:
    "Google had refused to remove the offensive image from its picture search listings, despite complaints that it is racist, instead opting to run an ad next to it explaining its policy on how search engine results work."

    Don't see any censorship right there...
  • DonkeyTonk
    DonkeyTonk wrote:
    Yeah there was alot of debate over that image of Michelle Obama.

    That wasn't Google censoring the image in the end though - it was the website who posted it that decided to take it down.

    If you understand how their algorithm works, you'll know that they don't interfere directly with results. They only tweak the algorithm so the search results are more relevant to the words being searched for.

  • DonkeyTonk
    DonkeyTonk wrote:
    "Yes, an old news proves there is no absolute freedom."
    - I want what you're smoking ;)

    "Google can say anything about its decision; I just wonder why Google likes to connect all thing with so-called human rights?"
    - Hackers were trying to get personal accounts of "Human Rights" activists. Human Rights websites must be blocked by Google.cn That's probably why they're connecting it all with Human rights.

    "Ironical"
    - Ironic. And no thats the wrong use of ironic. (Sorry i bring this up with Native Speakers too, not just my Chinese friends ;))

    "Unnecessary to connect all things with politics"
    - I believe they were connecting this to freedom of speech, not the downfall of our beloved Masters.

    "Different kind of censorship, it is harsher in China."
    - Yes it's true. They are guests. Live by the hosts rules or get out.

    "Google refused to censor news in China, therefore, Google will decide to withdraw from China. It is good news for its competitors."
    - Baidu must be loving this. I have friends working at Google in China and they are mostly in full support of Google. To be honest, it looks like they are going to try and do diplomacy before getting out. I give Google props for that.

  • Aurélien
    Aurélien wrote:
    Yeah, everyone's talking like google is going to withdraw right now. They'll first try to negociate, right?

    Damn, if gmail is going to be blocked... That'll be annoying.
  • kö
    wrote:
    诶·······祭奠··
  • Save Our Planet
    I felt misserable when I found out I couldn't access to You Tube, Hulu, Yahoo Taiwan, ...here in Beijing.

    I give Google my vote if they decide to back off China. Google knows its responsibility clearly - to make people live better, not worse. "Don't be evil" is its motto.

    @Sun, regarding Michelle Obama 'racist' picture, it is against law in US if you attack or discriminatete someone which is race or age related. It was not something related to censorship. It was an issue of discrimation and libel.
  • Aurélien
    Aurélien wrote:
    Sun,

    Don't really know, as I'm hardly concerned about my lame government trying to control Internet too.
  • Pete DeMola
    Pete DeMola wrote:
    Save

    It's not against the law in the United States to issue racial attacks. However vile, the right to disseminate racist ideologies is perfectly legal and within the protections guaranteed in the First Amendment to the Constitution.
  • Save Our Planet
    Pete,

    There are so many cases like Wal-Mart in the court several yeas ago.
  • Pete DeMola
    Pete DeMola wrote:
    Workplace discrimination is, of course, illegal. But citizens are free to issue racial remarks freely in the press, private organizations and to each other.

    Hope that clarifies things.
  • Save Our Planet
    Have you lived in US? If yes, how long? Have you tried by yourself? Try it and see what it will happen to you. Jury will love to hear your story.
  • Vegard Vingelsgård
    another USSR
  • Pete DeMola
    Pete DeMola wrote:
    I think you're still confused at the difference between institutionalized racial discrimination (illegal) and the airing of racist views as a private citizen in the public sphere (ignorant, but legal.)

    In any event, that's a discussion for another thread.
  • Vegard Vingelsgård
    far from the world
  • Save Our Planet
    Please consult with any civil law attorney in US.
  • Pete DeMola
    Pete DeMola wrote:
    Will do. And while I do that, exercise your Googling skills by doing a search for "First Amendment to the United States Constitution."

    Ready, set, go! Meet you back here tomorrow.
  • Save Our Planet
    Goodgle owns less than 30% of market share in Chinese search. Baidu seems to own a dominant 70%.

    Google's revenue from China is 10% of Google worldwide.
  • 外交猫
    外交猫 wrote:
    Just read this on Twitter: "After Google leaves China, the world’s top three websites on Alexa — Google, Facebook and Youtube — will all be blocked in China. This is not an issue of Google abandoning China, but one of China abandoning the world."

    By the logic on this forum, Google is abandoning hundred of millions of dollars in annual profits inside China because it "only" has a 30% share in the largest internet market on earth. I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense. Who cares that they lag behind Baidu? No company withdraws from a market and sacrifices metric tons of profit just because they're in second place. This absolutely cannot be a business decision. This is a moral decision and a personal-vengeance decision based on the attacks Google has suffered from China's hackers.

    Speaking of, people seem to be paying very little attention to the attacks on Google's networks. If the Chinese government wants to play hardball, violate Google's corporate privacy and abuse its customers, and attempt to steal Google's intellectual property, then Google damn well better play hardball in return. If the government didn't want to start a fight, then it shouldn't have started shooting first. I don't know why everyone is so shocked that Google is acting like a man and responding in kind.

    And the idea that Google is somehow doing the US government's bidding is frankly a little bit silly and paranoid. It sounds like a conspiracy theory. I know this is the internet and everyone here likes to believe in conspiracies, but c'mon -- Google is the same company that wouldn't give the US government the information that it demanded under the USA Patriot Act to help fight terrorism. Google refused to divulge its customers searching habits even when the CIA/NSA/FBI came knocking at the door demanding cooperation. Why would they work with DC now?

    There is also the problem that the logic that Google is a tool of the US government pretty much implies/requires that Facebook, YouTube, and Twitter are also tools of the US government. But meanwhile magically Microsoft, Yahoo, McDonalds and Starbucks are not? There is no logical coherence in the notion that Google would make any decisions based on something coming out of Washington, DC. Why would Google be a tool of the US government but not 10,000 other US companies operating here in China?

    The people that founded and run Google are Americans and they have an American value system. They have their own political beliefs, and they have the right to run their company in a way that matches their values. This has nothing to do with DC, and everything to do with Larry Page and Sergey Brin manning up.
  • DonkeyTonk
    DonkeyTonk wrote:
    Ethan, well put. My sentiments exactly and said much more clearly than I could have done my self.

    Sun make sure you have a good read of that and show a little humility.

    There are walls being put up between China and much of the rest of the world, and it's sad to see it happening to be honest.



  • G
    G wrote:
    ........................
  • DonkeyTonk
    DonkeyTonk wrote:
    Propaganda is aimed at the heart, not the head
  • Aurélien
    Aurélien wrote:
    >2. When the attorney answered the questions, he used lots of 'third-party' and he answered clearly when the host who asked directly him whether Google was sure that the attack was conducted by Chinese government or was sponsored by Chinese or someone else, the chief legal officer did not confirm; don't you forget the basic principle to show us some facts? How can you prove this attack was conducted by Chinese government?

    Not sure that other countries want to intrude some Chinese Human rights activists' mailboxes.
  • DonkeyTonk
    DonkeyTonk wrote:
    Sun, Humility and Humiliation are two very different things.

    Humility is a good characterisitic for everyone to have. Look it up in a dictionary.
  • DonkeyTonk
    DonkeyTonk wrote:
    And further from Thorstan's point.

    Google does not manipulate its search results in the USA to make USA government look good and Chinese Government to look bad. It doesn't manipulate its search results don't remove politically sensitive material in the USA. In China it has to.

    If anything, Google were forced into the Chinese Governments own political agenda by entering into China and filtering politically sensitive stuff.
  • G
    G wrote:
    VPN...翻墙而过....
    But unfortunately many proxy servers have been blocked as well...
  • 爱米粒Emily
    @Daniel, no worries, we still haven't got any legislation on that :)
  • 爱米粒Emily
    @Daniel, no worries they still haven't got any legislation on that yet... :)

    @Yuki, I've heard that “the High Above" has already banned any topic related to this issue...
  • Ms Bla
    Ms Bla wrote:
    Let's see :http://finance.vodone.com/zqsc/2010-1-14/1263438932717.shtml
    http://tech.163.com/10/0114/07/5SVJQ6GF000915BF.html
    http://news.fz.soufun.com/2010-01-14/3025603.htm

    we can just wait the peace treaty via chinese governments and Google's negotiate
  • Ms Bla
    Ms Bla wrote:
    aww;( ....
  • 哎呀
    哎呀 wrote:
    It would be a lose-lose situation if google close its business of China. Google will lose a very promising market; Chinese government will lose face in front of the whole world since they always claim that they want to build a democratic, civilized and mordern courtry.

    It's sad to see the society go backwards instead of progressing forward...
  • Notoro Kawabata
    Vimeo, imdb.....now its over.
    I dislike dictatorships. Even when they are legal.
    Sooner or later, in our misery we'll wake up.

    Some Cat Stevens, to go through this
    http://www.goear.com/listen/5c4185f/Harold-and-Maude-OST-cat-stevens
  • Pete DeMola
    Pete DeMola wrote:
    We're all disappointed at the recent news. But let's try to speak in disguised terms lest another cool website fall under the shadow of this bullshit.

    Catch my drift?

  • THIS IS A BIG IMAGE
    Benny the Necrophiliac was in low self confidence.
  • TonyDice
    TonyDice wrote:
    Oh, you just censored my post. I was simply reporting what we have already successfully reported in state media. Fancy a job in state propaganda department?

  • Pete DeMola
    Pete DeMola wrote:
    We get a lot of flack for deleting threads and posts, but we have to act in our own best interest when it comes to folks discussing sensitive issues like certain dates and events.

    Apologies if it's an inconvenience, but that's our policy. Thanks for understanding.
  • Kkg
    Kkg wrote:
    a good boy, pete, obedient & well-behaved.:]]
  • DonkeyTonk
    DonkeyTonk wrote:
    I for one welcome our new masters
  • Yuki Inés
    Yuki Inés wrote:
    Quote from blogs of Southern People Weekly 's chief editor in Kaixin:

    “Guess what would be the titles in all chinese media next week:

    1,南方人物周刊Southern People Weekly: Beijing Patients
    2,三联生活周刊Sanlian Life Weekly: The Logic of Google's Leave
    3,南方周末:Southern Weekly: You Don't Know, My Sadness 其实你不懂我伤悲

    4,第一财经周刊CBN Weekly : Goodnight, Google
    5,新周刊New Weekly: No G-Spot Anymore in China

    6,环球时报Global Times(C): 谷歌夭折大快人心
    7,人民日报People's Daily : All Capitalists Are Only Paper Tigers

    8,男人装FHM:Goodbye, Butt Cleavage(再见,股沟)”


  • Ms Bla
    Ms Bla wrote:
    'Baidu' will be the Number one . .....Oh m g... we'd catch this chance to do something at stock market ... here we go!
  • Siren Dahlkvist
    China is suck, they block everything now!
  • Ms Bla
    Ms Bla wrote:
    what did you say Toki ???
  • Siren Dahlkvist
    read again what i said B :)
  • Siren Dahlkvist
    http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/filtering/china/China-highlights.html

    even they are blocked Facebook, H5, Twitter....
    and they was blocked yahoo and hotmail.
    not they are gonna block GOOGLE! and want to attack every single site's and msn.

    now, the want to control our life... no news... only forbidden life....
  • Siren Dahlkvist
    i mean NOW* they are gonna block GOOGLE....
  • Siren Dahlkvist
    and they are blocked YOUTUBE too! darn!
  • Shane
    Shane wrote:
    I just can't help but wondering if all this internet censoring isn't a large part due to promoting chinese companies and eliminating the competition, I.E. Facebook, kaixinwang YouTube, Tudou/xunlei, etc. etc. What do you all think?
  • ┢┦apΡy
    ┢┦apΡy wrote:
    I ’m so ~so sad!!!!
  • Daniel Westerberg
    Shane,
    In that case, it's just a stupid plan. Baidu will never be a big player on internet searches in the rest of the world and with Google banned, Chinese companies will get it even harder to market their products and services since Youtube, Facebook and twitter is already banned (3 large marketing channels western companies already use heavily)
  • 爱米粒Emily
    Get a VPN.
  • Daniel Westerberg
    Emily: If I use a VPN to visit illegal web sites, is that a crime according to chinese law?
  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)
    ...

    Heehee ... Pete ... sorry ...
  • Pete DeMola
    Pete DeMola wrote:
    *places face in palms*
  • Rebecca Arnesen
    what undermines all efforts on the part of sen-sor-ship-sters?

    proxies! We'll always have our google...

    take that you poxy wall of fire!
  • DonkeyTonk
    DonkeyTonk wrote:
    If anything, this whole thing is more to do with business that politics Sun.

    The US government might try to make something political out of this but I really honestly believe that from Google's point of view, this is down to business. They are a public company with shareholders and infesters to answer to.

    Have a read of this interesting post over on Techcrunch: http://www.techcrunch.com/2010/01/12/google%E2%80%99s-china-stance-more-about-business-than-thwarting-evil/

  • 外交猫
    外交猫 wrote:
    Sun's problem is the same as many others in China who uncritically follow the leadership and accept the government's definition of what China's "interests" are. Unlike those of us in the west, he believes that his GOVERNMENT is the same thing as his COUNTRY. He equates the Chinese Government with the Chinese People. In the West we see things differently. The American government is not America, it's just a bunch of people who happen to have authority at the moment. America is defined by its people, not whatever administration happens to be in charge.

    China the COUNTRY is made of up regular Chinese people, and the interests of the Chinese people are what matters most. To our friend Sun, however, the interests of the Chinese Government are what matters most. I have no idea how the government here has been so effective at convincing so many Chinese people that this is the case, but they have been damn effective at it. In reality, the interests of the Chinese government almost never match up with the interests of the Chinese people. China the COUNTRY is sinking further and further away from the rest of the world, which is great for the Chinese government but terrible for China the country.

    The Times expressed it well:

    "If Google pulls out of China, the biggest losers would be the Chinese people. Google’s search engine provides access to vast stores of knowledge. The Chinese government, which heavily censored the news that Google was protesting its censorship, does not appear to realize that the whole nation would suffer.

    The Internet is one of the great driving forces in global progress. Entrepreneurs, scientists and artists who have the most access to it will be in the best position to invent the future."

    Sun, you can believe all the conspiracy theories you want, but the fact of the matter is that most of the stories you linked to don't actually support your point as far as I'm concerned. You are so determined to hate western democracy and diplomatic efforts that you see negatives where the rest of us see positives. If Hillary Clinton is trying to use modern technology tools to help regular Chinese people enter the modern world and know the truth, this is a good thing. If you think it is evil behavior, that means you support and love China's government more than you support and love Chinese people. We in the West value regular people more than we value governments, and perhaps this will always divide people like you from people like us.

    Lastly, I think you are naive if you believe that the Chinese government shut down Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube because it wanted to prevent Chinese people from interacting with Western bias. In reality they shut those sights down to prevent Chinese people from talking to each other and sharing their own information, thoughts, ideas, and dreams. The vast majority of Chinese cannot read or understand English, or French, or whatever, so the online threat that China's government fears is hardly the West. What the government fears is China's own people, and that's why it has to eliminate its people's ability to spread the truth, create change, encourage social and political progress, and all the other stuff that regular Chinese people would start to do if they had Facebook, Twitter, etc.

    Sorry Pete! For the record I understand if you eventually have to shut down this thread.
  • Yuki Inés
    Yuki Inés wrote:
    hahahah. Ethan, dude, take a look at this, "Fortunately, color revolution is not easy in China."

    I just cannot imagine why you would like to waste so many time on replying someone talking & thinking in such a persecutory delusion way.

    "if CCP go bust, what will happen to this country?"

    Que sera sera. But there is no such kind of logic to tolerate enslavement and isolation barely because you don't know how to deal with the vacuum and unexpected free+dom.

    Now I understand the history of Qing dynasty more. probably people at that time would just ask the same questions as you, that's why they wait silently, untill 1894-1895 came,and Boxer Indemnity Fund shocked them.

    I don't like to talk about politics at all although that's my major for years. but as a human, I should concern on my own rights and my life. If Google leave, I would say I miss all those golden years during 2002-2007, free bloging, sharing, knowing the world and myself.

    What a cliche but it is true in China. "Time never dies, the circle is never round."
  • G
    G wrote:
    free+dom...
  • Yuki Inés
    Yuki Inés wrote:
    haha, Sun. Smart one!
    "You can not understand" is the most perfect invention of your party to reject discussion and differences...how to say in Chinese ? Let me see... ”一群不明真相的群众“(A bunch of mass who don't know the truth).
    And of course I can move to other countries. 惹不起,我躲~

    Tell u what, actually, now I just plan to move to Iran.
    At least they had character like Mousavi !!

  • G
    G wrote:
    谷歌今天将Logo改为中国四大发明的真正含义:
    中国人发明了火药,后来禁止放烟花了;
    中国人发明了指南针,后来不能自由迁徙了;
    中国人发明了纸和印刷术,后来就文字狱了。
  • G
    G wrote:
    Google退出中国事件的各方反应:
    商人笑:傻!
    脑残喊:该!
    业内人士叹:唉……
    谷歌员工怒:靠!
    竞争对手惊:啥?
    广大用户哭:NO!
    “不明真相的群众”高呼:牛X!
    “有关部门”即将总结为:闭嘴!
  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)
    ...

    Hahahaha ... Sun ... you really did not have to remove your posts ... but then, easy come, easy go ...

    Does anyone know who handles the PR of Google (or Google China, or Google in China) after their contract with Ogilvy finished in October?
  • DonkeyTonk
    DonkeyTonk wrote:
    /saving copy of thread before it disappears
  • Ed Legend
    Ed Legend wrote:
    I'm more inclined to sympathise with your cynical side. Google's motives are suspect and I'm certain there's more to this than meets the eye.
  • Save Our Planet
    Good for the world.
  • wrote:
    Anyone want to know what I said, you can send message to me, haha
  • 外交猫
    外交猫 wrote:
    Some relevant info for those who suspect Google's motives:

    Sergey Bring, co-founder and President of Google, was born in the Soviet Union. I did not know this until recently. He spent his early childhood there, and his parents spent most of their lives there, until they were finally forced to emigrate to America to escape the institutionalized oppression his family was suffering under Soviet authoritarianism.

    According to most accounts from people close to Brin, he was never comfortable with Google's decision to compromise with the Chinese government, thanks to his natural distaste for oppressive regimes. It took a long time for him to accept Google being here, and he's been unhappy about it the whole time.

    Given that kind of background, you would have to be a pretty hard-core cynic to believe that there is no morality in Google's decision. Brin knows first hand about censorship and oppressive governments, and he has an inborn hatred for them. Why would he want to allow his amazing creation, Google, to be used as a tool to help an authoritarian regime stay in power?

    Here is a relevant story about his feeling about authoritarianism, quoted from a magazine article in 2007 and a book about Google, via Wikipedia:

    ..........At an interview in October, 2000, Brin said, "I know the hard times that my parents went through there, and am very thankful that I was brought to the States." A decade earlier, in the summer of 1990, a few weeks before his 17th birthday, his father led a group of gifted high school math students, including Sergey, on a two-week exchange program to the Soviet Union. "As Sergey recalls, the trip awakened his childhood fear of authority" and he remembers that his first "impulse on confronting Soviet oppression had been to throw pebbles at a police car." Malseed adds, "On the second day of the trip, while the group toured a sanitarium in the countryside near Moscow, Sergey took his father aside, looked him in the eye and said, 'Thank you for taking us all out of Russia.'".........
  • Richie
    Richie wrote:
    What makes me sick is the double standard the govt has - local company vs multinational (baidu vs google in this case).
  • Shane
    Shane wrote:
    You know what really gets me angry about this whole thing?

    I like to watch youtube for EDUCATION i.e. video lectures, cooking tips, news, etc. etc. all in one place. I do some recreational reading, but I much prefer the video format because i can listen to it while doing other things.

    And the scariest part is the amount of dirty things going on over here actually necessitate the blocking of these websites as a means of control.....

    Well, thats life in China, i suppose. Get used to it or get out
  • Shane
    Shane wrote:
    Anyone played Metal Gear Solid 2 before?

    If Snake were real.... this shit wouldn't have went down, No way!

    Unfortunately, all we have is Chuck Norris, and that dude is like 60.

    The world is doomed.....
  • Shane
    Shane wrote:
    But maybe if him and steven segal team up there may be a fighting chance.....
  • wrote:

    Ethan,

    You talked too much about ideology, it is your freedom, but you can not neglect the fact. We can stop discussing, for some guys, you lose your pants before you jump, so the attack was originated from Taiwan, why don't you read this news from NY times?

    I like Shane said: Well, that’s life in China, I suppose. Get used to it or get out. It is easy to know and understand every country has its game rule.

    As a Chinese, I do not need any moral police and people like you with ideology and I just do not like double standard and selective attitude toward China. When the Olympic torch relayed outside China, I realized the ugly faces of those Democratic countries; when the riots occurred in Xizang and Xinjiang, I saw how the truths were distorted by those western medium, perhaps these were not done by your common western people, but that is the key, you can not control your own country, which was controlled by those elite groups, you just attended the selection and cast your vote, that's over. And all these feelings have nothing to do with patriotism.

    No one possess superiority, superiority itself is against equality and freedom. If you are dangerous to national security, you will face the same destiny in any countries. A little more on Freedom of Speech:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/04/man-arrested-twitter-g20-us
    New York man accused of using Twitter to direct protesters during G20 summit

    It is not free to use twitter to express yourself in U.S., all your posts will be manly censored, especially when there are big things happened.

    http://www.democrats.com/node/21494
    Soldier Marc Hall's Freedom Rap Song Lands Him in Liberty Jail

    <span style="color: blue; font-size: 10pt; mso-ansi-language

  • wrote:

    haa, this pathetic soldier was jailed for just a song.

    Some facts about this attack:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/15/world/asia/15diplo.html

    It managed to gain access to a computer in Taiwan that it suspected of being the source of the attacks.

    strongly suggested an operation run by Chinese government agencies, or at least approved by them, company engineers could not definitively prove their case. Today that uncertainty, along with concerns about confronting the Chinese without strong evidence, has frozen the Obama administration’s response to the intrusion, one of the biggest cyberattacks of its kind, and to some extent the response of other targets, including some of the most prominent American companies.

    For example, the servers that carried out many of the attacks were based in Taiwan,
    though a Google executive said “it only took a few seconds to determine that the real origin was on the mainland.” And at Google’s headquarters in Mountain View, there is little doubt that Beijing was behind the attacks.
    =================================
    I said the day before yesterday; we should wait for some time to determine who conducted the attack, no facts no accusations. Even Google can not confirm where the attack came from.

    Thanks for U.S. government, who finally respected the fact that Taiwan is part of China.

  • wrote:

    But you are easy and quick to draw the conclusion. Just use your fact that the attack was conducted from China, haha

    I decide not to attend this discussion again, but I really think everyone should respect the fact and do not need to distort. I have to confess distortion is a systematic method for U.S. medium to penetrate other country, who has special professionals and methods to propagandize all things that the U.S. regards them to be true. It is not wise for Chinese government to ban the access to some internet sites, but in this matter, Google is not clean and innocent, but you never face this fact, I do not know why.

  • wrote:
    http://community.nytimes.com/comments/www.nytimes.com/2010/01/15/world/asia/15diplo.html
    More discussions can be saw fron this websites.
    More interesting comments here.
  • 外交猫
    外交猫 wrote:
    Sun, your ability to focus on minor details in order to avoid dealing with the larger issues is quite frustrating. These are such little things that you want to talk about, and by doing so you obscure much more important issues. I really don't care if two guys got arrested in Pittsburgh because they used Twitter to break the law. Who cares? The US government didn't then BLOCK TWITTER.

    Do you actually think that there is some other government or group somewhere on this planet that wants to hack into the accounts of Chinese human rights activists? There is no other plausible suspect other than the Chinese government. And if you genuinely support your government, then you wouldn't be ashamed of these cyber-attacks. You would be proud that your government is fighting back against enemies of the state. (I assume you consider these activists to be enemies of your country as well.) I know that the CIA is using cyber-warfare to fight al-Qaeda and other enemies of America, and I'm fine with that. Why are you trying to deny that China uses cyber-warfare to fight its enemies? Every government on earth does this, and China is no different. My argument is that the Chinese government's definition of who is a bad guy and who is a good guy is morally disgusting.

    It's funny that you hate the Western press for being biased, but you constantly link to Western media when you think they are supporting your points. So sometimes they tell the truth (when they say something that you like), and sometimes they lie (when they say something that makes you uncomfortable)? That's quite a trick you play with yourself.

    Also, you continually link to articles that in fact do not support your own point. I wish you would read them all the way before making me waste my time. Allow me to post what that New York Times article actually said, since Sun apparently did not read past the first paragraph:

    .........For example, the servers that carried out many of the attacks were based in Taiwan, though a Google executive said “it only took a few seconds to determine that the real origin was on the mainland.” And at Google’s headquarters in Mountain View, there is little doubt that Beijing was behind the attacks...

    ........ Seeing the breadth of the problem, [Google] alerted American intelligence and law enforcement officials and worked with them to assemble powerful evidence that the masterminds of the attacks were not in Taiwan, but on the Chinese mainland.

    But while much of the evidence, including the sophistication of the attacks, strongly suggested an operation run by Chinese government agencies, or at least approved by them, company engineers could not definitively prove their case...

    ...In interviews in which they disclosed new details of their efforts to solve the mystery, Google engineers said they doubted that a nongovernmental actor could pull off something this broad and well organized...

    ...Computer experts who track the thousands of daily attacks on corporate and government computer sites report that the majority of sophisticated attacks seem to emanate from China. What they cannot say is whether the hackers are operating on behalf of the Chinese state or in a haven that the Chinese have encouraged...

    ...“Everything we are learning is that in this case the Chinese government got caught with its hand in the cookie jar,” said James A. Lewis, a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, who consulted for the White House on cybersecurity last spring. “Would it hold up in court? No. But China is the only government in the world obsessed about Tibet, and that issue goes right to the heart of their vision of political survival and putting down the separatists’ movements.”

    Over the years, there have been private warnings issued to China, notably after an attack on the computer systems used by the office of the defense secretary two years ago.
  • wrote:

    Say goodbye to Google.

  • wrote:
    haha, those Tibetan and Uighur separatists are Chinese human rights activists? Are you kidding me? They are terrorists as your country regards Al Qaeda. So, that’s what I talked about double standard, you American used war and every possible method to tackle these terrorist. Even now you can not give any facts to prove that the attack was conducted by Chinese government, but you assumed it, so stop, I have enough.
    Unless you know nothing about the riots in Xizang and Xinjiang, please do not be so ignorant. It Chinese government who helped those minorities in Xizang and Xinjiang, not those so-called Chinese human rights activists, if you really want to talk with me, please ask for your students about Chinese minority policies, what’s 两少一宽, why those minorities do not need to abide by one-child policy and lots of priority policies for those minorities, especially in Xizang and Xinjiang. I have to say you know little about the scenario in China, you used your so-called universe values to think about other countries and peoples, that’s why U.S. is the enemy of Islam world.
  • wrote:
    You did not block twitter, but you have the rules to jail those who offend it.
    Just like what happen in China, the rule was imposed by Chinese government, Google offended it, Chinese government has the rights to do what the law or the rule allow the government to do. Isn't it the same way? But Chinese government did not detain those people but ban the access to the internet.

    By the way, why don't you talk about those cyber attack conducted by U.S. against China before? You forget those facts?
  • wrote:
    It's funny that you hate the Western press for being biased, but you constantly link to Western media when you think they are supporting your points.
    ==============
    You are totally wrong about this point, I just let you know even this kind propaganda can not conceal all details of the facts, in this matter, if Google has enough evidence to show that if it is China conducted the attack, you will see more denouncement and attacks to Chinese government, but up to know, there are not so many evidence to support Google's accusation, that's why you just saw comparatively light attack to Chinese government. Can’t you understand? If i used Chinese news, you will have many doubts and arguments to fight with me, meaningless. I can use English to communicate with you. Even the western news can not confirm the evidence, just used so many ambivalent assumptions to attack Chinese government, I get used to them. If they have assured evidence, I am sure your government and EU will act together to blow China as early as possible.
  • TonyDice
    TonyDice wrote:
    Dim Sun
  • wrote:
    Tony,

    You are double DIM!
  • 外交猫
    外交猫 wrote:
    Of course the CIA is using cyber-spying against China. I have no illusions about that. Everyone knows that the CIA is one of the most aggressively activist intelligence agencies in the world, and everyone knows that the US is very pro-active in addressing issues of its national security.

    The difference between me and Sun is that I have no romantic illusions about the national security policy of my own government. Some people in China, like Sun, have this silly belief that the Chinese government is somehow pure or innocent or non-aggressive. All the other governments and intel agencies in the world know that China is in fact extremely aggressive with its cyber-spying and cyber-warfare, but since this doesn't match up with the vision of China as a "harmonious, peaceful" country, people like Sun don't want to accept it.

    I'm still waiting to hear any plausible explanation for who else in the world would want to break into the email accounts of the human rights activists (only some of whom were Tibetans or Uighurs). Sun, I'm also waiting for you to explain why you are denying that your government is trying to hack these people if you genuinely think they are terrorists. If you think they are evil, then why do you hope that your government is innocent of spying on them?

    For the record, one of my students is Uighur, and not surprisingly he has an extremely different perspective than you do about how China treats his people.
  • wrote:
    Ethan,

    I wish you can ask your government to move all Uighur to U.S..
    I only knew when most of the victims in the riots were Han people, your country and medium shut up, is it interesting?
    If Uighurs think they all not treated equally, they should compare them to those colored people in the U.S.
  • Richie
    Richie wrote:
    Google video search is not accessible now - or is it just me having problem accessing?
  • Shane
    Shane wrote:
    Sun,

    Many things are accepted by the masses as existing, yet unable to be proven. Let me give you a few examples:

    1) The theory of relativity 2) Evolution 3) The matter at hand

    But, the posts you put on this forum can factually conclude

    You are brainwashed.
  • wrote:
    No matter I was brainwashed or not, one thing is certain, some one can not argue with the basic fact, so why don't you prove they are brainwashed?
    No evidence no accusation, which is the basic principle to help us avoid falling into attacking each other without any principles and vituperation to each other.
    I am glad to see that you will think others have different positions and thus they are brainwashed.

    By the way:
    Many things can not be proved, I add more,
    1) God or Jesus or Allah
    2) You are brainwashed or not, only you know yourself and your position.

    Do not show you are so lily-white, in this matter, I told you clearly that Google is not clean and innocent. That's all.
  • Aurélien
    Aurélien wrote:
    Wait, why are you adding religious matters to this post? It will definitely never ends.
  • wrote:
    Please ask about Ethan and Shane, I just want to show with enough evidence that Google is not clean and innocent, but they want to broaden the topics to freedom of speech, political system and something that can not be proven such as 1) The theory of relativity 2) Evolution, therefore , I add more to this thread, and I believe we can add 2012, Apollo 20 and other topics together, haha
  • Siren Dahlkvist
    SUN IS IDIOT! duhhhh!
  • wrote:
    I am not idiot, you are a barbarian, you should know about this.
    If you do not like what happened, you can choose leave.
    But do not be personal.
  • Shane
    Shane wrote:
    No, I choose to shave. Unlike the Chinese women I might add.
  • Shane
    Shane wrote:
    Sun,

    I bet you got a jungle down there that can beat anything in Hainan
  • Pete DeMola
    Pete DeMola wrote:
    jeje
  • DonkeyTonk
    DonkeyTonk wrote:
    Sun you sound just as idiotic as the extreme nationals in my own country
  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)
    ...

    Q: Why is everything in BOLD? Let me try this ...

    Sun ... if you would listen to me, please take some time to clear your minds and then come back ... it does not help in any discussion ... keep your humor but stay away from temper ...
  • 王经纬
    王经纬 wrote:
    Sun 请不要和恶意敌对者浪费时间。没有意义的呵呵呵,人家就是摆明了挑剔找茬。人家就是认为自己的逻辑是宇宙真理,你应该建议他们去学轮子功。呵呵
  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)
    ...

    哈哈...阿弥陀佛...
  • 王经纬
    王经纬 wrote:
    http://pop.6park.com/life2/messages/2805.html
    狗狗发飙一栏汇总、 www.google.com
    能看到留园的可以看看这个 ,哈哈
  • Aurélien
    Aurélien wrote:
    Well done guys, you broke the forum x(!
  • wrote:
    William,
    You can eat SHIT, I will not prevent you from doing so.
    I did not speak for you, if you are not satisfied with this country, you can tell the country, do not tell me.
  • Richie
    Richie wrote:
    Sun belongs to a section of 'educated' Chinese citizens who complains and bitches about his government everyday in his own small cube but cannot stand any non-Chinese making a positive criticism. Well, not everything discussed here were all that constructive but yet, Sun still falls into that category. 'Face' matters, speaking what's right doesn't.
  • wrote:
    but cannot stand any non-Chinese making a positive criticism
    ======================
    Who told you so?
    I just remind some people not to behave double standard and be selective.
    If you are not short memory, you should think about the riots occurred in Xizang and Xinjiang. Simply speaking, I like the comparison: when these western countries attack you because you have different view with them, they call themselves warriors to guarantee free world; but when they are attacked, they will call you terrorism and send army to deal with you, such as the war in Iraq, Afghan and what will be conducted in Iran.

    Sun still falls into that category. 'Face' matters
    ==============
    How stupid to talk this kind argument!
    China in my eye is a backward country and with a lot of stupid persons just like you who never thought about to change yourselves but pin your hope on outside power, daydreaming.
  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)
    ...

    老孙...我又来"发牙痕"了,呵呵...

    In English, it is oftened referred to as "calm, cool and collective" ... it is OK to lose a fight or argument, but it is not OK to lose your temper ... and once you let someone's words get to you, you have lost all control of the situation ...

    So, calm down, sit back, and re-group ...
  • wrote:
    你怎么知道我生气了?
    显然没有,我想说的就是,双重标准玩多了,就失灵了。
    貌似,基本的事实证明,google到目前为止没任何证据说什么,而且Bloomberg的新闻说google没打算撤出中国,所以所有的事实可以说明什么叫做价值观和双重标准。
  • 叮噹叔叔 (令狐叮噹)
    ...

    Hahahaha ... silly silly old me cannot say the rest in Chinese, so switching back to English for the moment ... hope that's ok ...

    Are you sure you are not mad or angry? Just that your "attack" speaks otherwise, if you would listen for a minute, cool it ...

    Double standard is commonly found among civilisation, so it had been around for many years, and will be around for many more, dont fight it, you wont win ... hahahaha

    Everyone sees things differently, and no one person must agree with anyone, it is not in our job description ... so just voice your opinion, and read others, no need to make anything personal ...

    As I said before, if other people wants to make things personal, that's their choice, you dont need to be drawn into that game ...
  • Undermoonlight
    ...to be frank, there are lots of chinese people taking this issue in Sun's way...I think that one thing that should be made clear is that it's all about interest and power...no matter it is politics, patriotism, business, democracy, or whatever else that may sound righteous and truthful...in essence, it's the war between the defenders of two different lifestyles...the strongest reason that people like Sun hold is that "we just want to be censored, so what? it's none of your outsiders' business!"...the Suns are not stupid--they are just defending their lifestyle...it can lead to a much broader issue: what is right? what is wrong? what is progressive? what is backward?...development? well, some people say the "development" (in the common sense) will eventually result in the ultimate destruction of the world...anyway, ideologies are the most difficult stuff to deal with...
  • wrote:
    Sun's way???????
    =============
    I just said again and again:
    1. It is not wise for the government to control the internet too much;
    2. No facts no accusation, up to know, there is no evidence supports goolge's accusation about the attack was conducted by Chinese government. In fact, the fact only show Goolge's integrity is in question and it is a political movement.
    3. No double standard and distortion.
    Anyone with common sense of the relationship between China and U.S. will understand Google’s action is not isolated one.
    Thanks.
  • Shane
    Shane wrote:
    Sun, I saw this video and it reminded me of you

    Leave Britney Alone
    http://you.video.sina.com.cn/b/9640350-1212188024.html?retcode=0
  • TonyDice
    TonyDice wrote:
    Sun, you're right about the evidence, so far there is none. But Aurora has been traced back to the mainland via a Taiwanese computer and China has a long rap sheet of cyber spying. To try to distinguish between who did it, whether it was a corporation or the government directly, is somewhat pointless in a society like China, where virtually every form of power is political.

    Everyone's at it and the Chinese feel, not unfairly, that they have been pilfered from by the West quite substantially during the Qing period and they are just getting their own back.

    They wish to boost their economy by any way possible, and stealing all their secrets is the obvious way to catch up and overtake the West as fast a possible. Whether they will succeed or not is anyone's guess.

    The Times reports today:

    "Chinese hackers are believed to have attempted to penetrate India’s most sensitive government office in the latest sign of rising tensions between the two rival Asian powers, The Times has learnt.

    M. K. Narayanan, India’s National Security Adviser, said his office and other government departments were targeted on December 15, the same date that US companies reported cyber attacks from China. "

    Over to you, Sun
  • Tanaka Noriko
    Tanaka Noriko wrote:
    How can I survive without google??

    some of people say google is idiot for shuting down google.cn, well i think google is hero, thats absolute right behaveior for doing business, stuck with own gum is ethic.

    in fact what the chinese gov. want's to do is vary or toppling down the image and culture of google, change into chinese way, if so, google is no longer google per se, should be called" baigle", just like foreigners being snakey after stay some time in china.

    compromising or not? this is a question,do not give up the whole forest for only one tree is googl's philosophy for retreating out of china.
  • Shane
    Shane wrote:
    So here is the real story, enough of the media bullshit. My friend knows someone who is very high-up in google, and he asked them what happened.

    They said the attack was done inside of the google office in Beijing. It was an undercover employee, who stole passwords to access certain information.

    The Chinese government requested google to give them this information, but they refused. So it seems pretty apparent what happened.

    The Gov't did the same thing for Yahoo in the past. When they did, yahoo also refused, but when the gov't persisted, yahoo ended up selling its China branch to a third party to avoid responsibility for releasing the information. The result was certain citizens were arrested because of sending controversial e-mails.

    This isn't my opinion, its the facts. Feel free to discuss :)
  • TonyDice
    TonyDice wrote:
    I'm struggling to understand what part of this 'revelation' wasn't already in the public domain a week ago? I knew all this last Sunday.
  • DonkeyTonk
    DonkeyTonk wrote:
    I have two friends inside Google china.

    They both said last week that all employees were sent home for the rest of the week and all access to any of the internal Google systems were switched off for www.google.cn employees.

Please login to post a reply to this thread.

WeLiveInBeijing

WeLiveInBeijing.com is a social community for people living in or traveling to Beijing.

Powered by: Bloc